The Trinity

[keypurr]

Keypurr, Jesus is Savior. He is therefore YHWH!

Nope, I strongly disagree.

The savior had to be a human, a sinless human, not God.
The Lamb of God, not God.


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[Bright Raven]

Nope, I strongly disagree.

The savior had to be a human, a sinless human, not God.
The Lamb of God, not God.


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Wrong, the Savior is God Read Isaiah again.

Isaiah 43:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 “I, even I, am the Lord,
And there is no savior besides Me.

 

[keypurr]

Wrong, the Savior is God Read Isaiah again.

Isaiah 43:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 “I, even I, am the Lord,
And there is no savior besides Me.

So you think God was his own sacrifice to himself?

Silly thoughts my friend.


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[Bright Raven]

So you think God was his own sacrifice to himself?

Silly thoughts my friend.


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God the Son was the sacrifice. He is unique. Totally God, totally man.

 

[keypurr]

God the Son was the sacrifice. He is unique. Totally God, totally man.

So your still saying God was the sacrifice for God.

Your the one who says they are three in one God.

Explain to me how God can be the sacrifice to God.

God is the Lamb of God?

The Trinity doctrine trips over itself.




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[Rosenritter]

No he's the Christ the Son of God . He isn't God. And yes, he had a human nature but he didn't sin like we do, he denied that human nature to obey God and do God's will. And the father gave him power over all flesh, so we saw the exact nature of God through Jesus, the express image of God because he was in the fullness of God bodily, because he didn't live by his will but lived completely by the will of the Father and because of this, he had the full power of the Holy Spirit.

The Creator of all things, whomever he is, is our God. We are told that Jesus, also called the Word, is that Creator of all things. Ergo, Jesus IS God.

 

[Rosenritter]

Your post is quite long and will take me a while to read, and I'm a bit busy at the moment.

But I've got a question, please see the following verses, why shouldn't I believe them when they clearly show is that God is also the God of Jesus? And these are only a few, I have many more if you would like to see them? I'll post them later if you like when I have some time?

John 17:3 kjv

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”(John 20:17 KJV)

Marhig, why do you think that Jesus said "my God and your God" instead of saying "our God?" Don't you think that's an unusual construction that he chose there? He doesn't group himself with Mary (or others) does he? The Father was the "God" of Jesus in a different sense than as we might say for Mary, for you, or for me...

 

[Rosenritter]

Guess you have to ignore this verse, then, don't you, Keypurr?

How many verses must you ignore or pervert to maintain your pride in your own understanding?

That's really what this is about, isn't it?

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.​

Romans 5:8 KJV
(8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
(17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Christ = God, or at least John seems to think so.

 

[Rosenritter]

Ok, now just carry on to the next verse

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Who did Jesus say to the Jews he was from the beginning of his ministry? God, or the Son of God?

If you could show from scripture that the Son of God is anything other than God himself you might have a point to stand on. That's where your argument fails.

 

[keypurr]

The Creator of all things, whomever he is, is our God. We are told that Jesus, also called the Word, is that Creator of all things. Ergo, Jesus IS God.

Your partly right, Christ is like a God to us, but he tells us quite clearly that only his Father is the true God. He taught us to pray to his God. Christ, spirit son, logos, was given the fullness of God, and God created all through him. Folks get shook up though when they see that Christ is a creature and not God.

 

[Rosenritter]

50 Names and Titles of Jesus:

Spoiler

1. Almighty One –“…who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 1:8
2. Alpha and Omega – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Rev. 22:13
3. Advocate – “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.” 1 John 2:1
4. Author and Perfecter of Our Faith – “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Heb. 12:2
5. Authority – “Jesus said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matt. 28:18
6. Bread of Life – “Then Jesus declared, ‘I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.’” John 6:35
7. Beloved Son of God – “And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matt. 3:17
8. Bridegroom – “And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.” Matt. 9:15
9. Chief Cornerstone – “The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner stone.” Ps. 118:22
10. Deliverer – “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thess.1:10
11. Faithful and True – “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.” Rev.19:11
12. Good Shepherd - “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” John 10:11
13. Great High Priest – “Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.” Heb. 4:14
14. Head of the Church – “And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church.” Eph. 1:22
15. Holy Servant – “…and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." Acts 4:29-30
16. I Am – “Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
17. Immanuel – “…She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us.’” Is. 7:14
18. Indescribable Gift – “Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift.” 2 Cor. 9:15
19. Judge – “…he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.” Acts 10:42
20. King of Kings – “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.” Rev. 17:14
21. Lamb of God – “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” John 1:29
22. Light of the World – "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12
23. Lion of the Tribe of Judah – “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” Rev. 5:5
24. Lord of All – “For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil. 2:9-11
25. Mediator – “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5
26. Messiah – “We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).” John 1:41
27. Mighty One – “Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.” Is. 60:16
28. One Who Sets Free – “So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:36
29. Our Hope – “…Christ Jesus our hope.” 1 Tim. 1:1
30. Peace – “For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,” Eph. 2:14
31. Prophet – “And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” Mark 6:4
32. Redeemer – “And as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth.” Job 19:25
33. Risen Lord – “…that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.” 1 Cor. 15:3-4
34. Rock – “For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4
35. Sacrifice for Our Sins – “This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.” 1 John 4:10
36. Savior – “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11
37. Son of Man – “For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10
38. Son of the Most High – “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.” Luke 1:32
39. Supreme Creator Over All – “By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…” 1 Cor. 1:16-17
40. Resurrection and the Life – “Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.” John 11:25
41. The Door – “I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.” John 10:9
42. The Way – “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
43. The Word – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
44. True Vine - "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1
45. Truth – “And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32
46. Victorious One – “To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Rev. 3:21
47. – 50. Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace – “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Is. 9:6

 

[Rosenritter]

Show me where it says Jesus is God. I do not see it.

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There's a hundred different places, but Glory just gave you this one:

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Isaiah 8:13 Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

 

[Rosenritter]

No one that I know of. I didn't say that, did you?

The point is that there are things that you do have to believe. You don't get to just believe anything you like and still meaningfully call yourself a Christian or rationally consider yourself to be saved.

If you think that this statement qualifies you as a saved Christian then you aren't saved either. The demons in Hell believe that Jesus is the Son of God, for crying out loud!


This is just so much juvenile silliness. You don't even do this! When you meet a Buddhist, do you presume him to be unsaved or do you leave that up to God to decide? When you drive by the meeting place of the cult that meets in your local area (Mormons or whatever) do you presume them all to be lost and separated from the true God or do you let God make that decision?

Words mean things, marhig! And I can read. The Christian faith is a whole lot more than a mere intellectual assent to the fact that Jesus is God's Son and our trying to submit ourselves to God's will. What a pathetically shallow understanding of the gospel. I agree that there are a wide range of varying beliefs within the Church and that some, if not most of them are minor differences that have little or no effect on whether that person is saved. But Christian doctrine is not so malleable that there isn't a point at which a line has been crossed taking one into place that can no longer rightly be called Christianity. Sometimes this line can be rather difficult to discern but most times it isn't hard at all and when there is a doubt, I give people the benefit of that doubt and presume that they are NOT saved. What good am I doing to someone who is on the wrong side of that line by presuming that they are saved or divorsing myself from the responsibility of even making the judment?

I'll ask you a question...

Why did it have to be Jesus who died? Why couldn't it have been someone or something else?

Resting in Him,
Clete

John 13:34-35 KJV
(34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
(35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[Rosenritter]

You can believe in Santa and his flying reindeer if you wish, I must have reasonable proof to support my faith. Sunday in scripture, the the day of the Sun God mentioned in the OT. To not hold the seventh say Sabbath is to break his commandments. Like making another God, to break his law is to sin. I bet that is news to you. You trust in a church that over the years has distorted the teaching of our master.

Babylon is falling my friend, get out while you can.

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1. You believe that God prohibits the worship of himself on one (or more) days of the week?
2. You believe that Gentiles are commanded to enter into the Old Covenant that was only offered to Israel?

 

[Rosenritter]

The Son of God is a CREATURE. Firstborn of all creation.

Show me a verse that proves he isn't.

Jesus Christ said ALL POWER WAS GIVEN TO HIM. If he was God, he would not need the power given to him.

The true spirit Son, logos, was given the fullness of his God. He is a created form of God.

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Sorry Keypurr, you don't get to turn that around. It says the Son of God created all things, that means he is not a "creature." The "firstborn of all creation" is a phrase that the Jews used to designate the CREATOR of Creation.

But this also applies in a second way. He is also the "firstborn" of all creation, because he is their Lamb. That firstborn Lamb that is sacrificed for their sins, the Passover. Everyone needed a firstborn to be sacrificed for them, if you remember the history. Every household had its own lamb, and only of those Jews.

So in this way, Jesus is the firstborn of ALL creation. Not just the Jew, but also the Gentile.

(By the way, if you read the gospels you'd noticed that Jesus exercised all power far before he said that all power was given to him. He gets that perogative, being God and all...)

 

[Rosenritter]

Keypurr is not going to change his views in any way because he is 81 years old. I argued these same points with him when he was his 70s, but never got anywhere. Now, I do not try.

Just because someone is old does not make their stupid nor stubborn. And eighty-one is hardly old considering we were originally built on the thousand year plan - it's our flesh that ages faster from this fallen world, not necessarily our minds. If Keypurr is stubborn it is because he is Keyprr, not because he has lived eighty-one years.

 

[Rosenritter]

I edited that last post.

If you embrace the teachings of those who burnt men at the stake you embrace lies.

... so if people who burnt men at the stake claim that God created the heavens and the earth, that makes that teaching a lie? You need to review your thought process a bit methinks.

 

[Rosenritter]

Nope, I strongly disagree.

The savior had to be a human, a sinless human, not God.
The Lamb of God, not God.

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Only God can forgive sin. If all that was needed was a human who hadn't sinned then all God would have had to do was destroy an impregnated ovum. The sacrifice of Christ only has meaning because he was God, and that sacrifice shows his forgiveness. Were he not God, it would have no more power than the death of goats and bulls.

 

[Rosenritter]

So you think God was his own sacrifice to himself?

Silly thoughts my friend.

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Silly thoughts? That's the thoughts of the scripture Keypurr.

John 15:13 KJV
(13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 3:16 KJV
(16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

If God had to find someone else to lay down his life, instead of doing it himself, then evidently this someone else loved us more than God.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Only God can forgive sin. If all that was needed was a human who hadn't sinned then all God would have had to do was destroy an impregnated ovum. The sacrifice of Christ only has meaning because he was God, and that sacrifice shows his forgiveness. Were he not God, it would have no more power than the death of goats and bulls.

All untrue.

It was on the basis that Jesus was both a 100% righteous man that His sacrifice was effective and accepted by God,and one anointed by God His Father that He could forgive sin before His resurrection.

Not because He was supposedly the creator, which the Bible never claims Him to be, nor upon which men are saved.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


LA