Rosenritter
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Last week I posted quotation from a Trinitarian site admitting that 1 John 5:7 looks as if it gives stronger support for Oneness Theology than Trinitarian.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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Last week I posted quotation from a Trinitarian site admitting that 1 John 5:7 looks as if it gives stronger support for Oneness Theology than Trinitarian.
Rosenritter
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You seriously need to lighten up.
Rosenritter
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JudgeRightly, when does Paul say that we receive our immortal body from the heavens?
Rosenritter
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I am confused at how you draw a distinction between "the Trinity" and "Trinity doctrine." I'm sure you have some meaning behind it. Would you clarify please? Thanks.
Rosenritter
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When Jesus is scourged, brutally beaten, mocked, and murdered at the hands of wicked men, and in response to this he says, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" this illustrates the extent that He is willing to forgive sin against Himself.
It's not that Him being murdered saves us, but that he forgave the murder that truly tells us that even we can be saved.
Rosenritter
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When Jesus speaks in Matthew 17:3, he says that the purpose of the statement is to prove the resurrection of the dead. Thus his statement of "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" must refer to the resurrection, and cannot possibly mean that the dead are conscious in the meantime.
For if the dead were alive in any sense of the word before the resurrection or without needing a resurrection, then far from his statement proving the resurrection, it would disprove any necessity of that resurrection.
Rosenritter
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It depends on which bible translation you're reading. However, Jesus did promise he would be with him when he was in Paradise, and after a full three days later when he spoke, he had not yet ascended to heaven.
Luke 23:43 ESV
(43) And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
In that translation above, Jesus promises the thief that both he and the thief will be in Paradise that day. However, according to Peter in the book of Acts, the soul of Jesus was in hell during those three days. Let's compare a different translation.
Luke 23:42-43 KJV
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
In the translation above, Jesus issues a decree that becomes immediately effective, that the thief will be with Jesus in paradise. No day is given for the fulfillment of the decree, but we do have the context of the previous verse, of "when thou comest into thy kingdom."
It's not a matter of translating the Greek word, it's a matter of choosing the English translation based on context.
Rosenritter
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Acts 2:34 KJV
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Rosenritter
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Bright Raven, if we are to assume that the scripture and prophets are accurate and correct when they say that the dead know nothing, that they are at rest, both the righteous and wicked, that they sleep, without knowledge that they are dead...
If we assume that is correct...
Then when a saint of Christ dies, what happens in their next conscious instant?
If there's any confusion, revert to the greek.
The word used literally means "today."
Rosenritter
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Where is Paradise BR?
Paradise, where is it?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This brings up a question as to where is Paradise.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knowethsuch a one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died if he had not yet assended to his Father on Sunday?
It appears that the comma was inserted in the wrong place.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
There's nothing wrong with the comma there Keypurr. You're misreading the English. Here's another example of similar syntax. Since there's no theological dispute attached to this meaning, it demonstrates that "today shalt" relates the the effectiveness of the decree, rather than the fulfillment of the decree.
1 Kings 2:37-43 KJV
(37) For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.
(38) And Shimei said unto the king, The saying is good: as my lord the king hath said, so will thy servant do. And Shimei dwelt in Jerusalem many days.
(39) And it came to pass at the end of three years, that two of the servants of Shimei ran away unto Achish son of Maachah king of Gath. And they told Shimei, saying, Behold, thy servants be in Gath.
(40) And Shimei arose, and saddled his ***, and went to Gath to Achish to seek his servants: and Shimei went, and brought his servants from Gath.
(41) And it was told Solomon that Shimei had gone from Jerusalem to Gath, and was come again.
(42) And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.
(43) Why then hast thou not kept the oath of the LORD, and the commandment that I have charged thee with?
The comma punctuation mark is correctly placed in the New Testament passage. If you can trust me on this we can spare a lengthy ordeal illustrating the umpteen times Jesus speaks with the introduction "Verily I say unto thee" and the zero times he says "Verily I say unto thee today" in analysis.
Rosenritter
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1 Samuel 18:21 KJV
(21) And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain.
JudgeRightly, what was the prerequisite task that was required before David would be able to marry Saul's daughter and become the king's son in law?
1 Samuel 18:23-25 KJV
(23) And Saul's servants spake those words in the ears of David. And David said, Seemeth it to you a light thing to be a king's son in law, seeing that I am a poor man, and lightly esteemed?
(24) And the servants of Saul told him, saying, On this manner spake David.
(25) And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies. But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines.
Do you figure that it took more or less than 24 hours for the conversation to take place, back and forth between servants, and for David to travel out to enemy territory (with or without gathering friends) and to gather 200 enemy foreskins, return, present them to the king, take a bath, and attend his own wedding?
Rosenritter
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Thank you, that looks like a lazy slow ball at major leagues.
1 Corinthians 15:19-20 KJV
(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:32 KJV
(32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Our hope is the resurrection of the dead, and if we are not raised, we have no hope. That's what Paul tells us at least, and it would seem very strange for him to say such a thing if we were happy and alive with Jesus as soon as we were dead, whether or we were eventually raised in a resurrection or not.
Rosenritter
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Yellow flag. Antagonizing each other is away from the direction we need to be moving, right?
Rosenritter
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It's not a contradictory term. If something is destroyed temporarily, it means it will be fixed, restored, or recreated again. If something is destroyed eternally, it means it will never be fixed, restored, or recreated again. It means the destruction is a real, permanent, eternal thing.
Rosenritter
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You need to stop getting ahead of yourself. When you do this, you just waste the rest of the text.
Let's pretend for a moment that Jesus was likening himself to "a god" of the 86th Psalm. This would make him
1) An unjust judge, that was appointed to deliver righteousness and mercy but failed
2) One who would be judged by the One God, that judgeth among the gods (like himself)
3) and he, the "a god" would die like men, and perish like one of the princes.
Had he been likening himself to "a god" he was denying that he was righteous, without sin, his right and role of Judge of the Quick and the Dead, and even his own resurrection and immortality.
Let's put this simply: your NWT translation of "a god" is anti-Christ, not because it denies that Jesus is God, but because it's willing to deny that he is our sacrifice without sin, and that he has risen, and that it is he who judges among the gods in order to do it.
Rosenritter
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That's an interesting explanation...
However, Trinity doctrine forbids "confusion of the persons" and that would require Jesus to be confusing the persons in the most direct way.
I think that deserves at least partial credit (no sarcasm intended). It might be persuasive to someone like GT that freely interchanges the Son and Father. Even Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus "the everlasting Father."
Rosenritter
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Yes, of course the word is today (or "to day" in older English.) I said that it wasn't an issue of the Greek. I'm getting the impression that you misunderstood that post entirely?
God's Truth
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So was his spirit with his bones or in his bones? lol
You said the spirit was with the bones and not in it.
Regardless, our spirit doesn't stay with or in our bones!
God's Truth
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How do you know?