The Trinity

[God's Truth]

Oh, I know what insulting is and I didn’t insult you, NOT YET, at least, I simply garnered from your doctrine who you, gt, say you think you are.



Have you repented of the sin of vociferously, arrogantly, proudly, presumptuously, conceitedly, pompously, egotistically, saying that you OBEY ALL of Jesus’ commandments yet?



OK. Have you OBEYED Jesus yet by entering into His rest? You know how Jesus said to enter into His rest don’t you? Jesus said, ‘Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest’ (Matthew 11:28). Notice Jesus did not say, ‘come unto me all you who without knowing me have obeyed me…’

Jesus was calling SINNERS laboring over the weight of their working their little fingers off to obtain God’s rest.



Sinned against you????? Do you realize what you’re saying, gt?

You are so arrogant, smug, conceited, pompous, presumptuous, egotistical, proud, puffed up, self-important, stuck up one that you are searing your own mind with the fire of your own grandiose scheme.



OK. Do you gt, as you have continuously asserted, OBEY ALL of Jesus’ commandments?



OK. What have you, gt, done that is so special that Jesus could not have asked someone else to do?

Is this a repeat post? How about we talk about the trinity?

 

[God's Truth]

Actually, that would be classified as insulting. I have given up trying to help GT (she is blocked now to remove the temptation) but would you at least desist for both your sake and mine? Even the best of spirits would have trouble responding positively to how you are confronting her, and GT is not the best of spirits.

What kind of spirit do you think you have going around judging everyone, and falsely at that?

 

[marhig]

The Bible's not the teacher's edition, or the answer key. Anybody can "prove" whatever they want from Sacred Scripture. That's because it's not the answer key, or the teacher's edition.
Then why act like a moron?

Oh right, yet still Jesus is called the Christ by Peter and this was his revelation from the father. And he is the Christ, Christ means anointed, so the Christ means the anointed, which Jesus is!

 

[marhig]

The finished work is not the setting up of the Gospel, for the gospel is Jesus Christ. Salvation has been given to all men: however, the salvation given to all men (reconciliation, justification to life) is not the same salvation (preservation, forgiveness of sins, sealing of the Holy Spirit) that one is given upon acknowledging and having faith that Christ is the Savior). I find that too many do not know or see that there are two different words translated as "saved" throughout the New Testament. Since I am at work using my phone, I am not able to present each word to you, but I trust that you have the means to search and see for yourself.

I don't agree with that, Christ Jesus' work was clearly to glorify the father and preach the gospel and save as many by the word of God that he could, those who would truly believe in him, and then set up those ready to carry on the works of God and bring his love, word and the life of Christ to others.

There are different types of salvation, initial salvation when we believe and repent and forgiven of our sins, and then once we are born of God and receive the spirit, we are then saved daily by the Spirit strengthening us as we live by the will of God, saving us from this world of sin and death. But we won't know that we are eternally saved until we take our last breath, we must endure to the end and keep our faith and not turn away back to the ways of the world and lusts of the flesh again. I can't understand why people believe that God will stay with them if they turn from him to put themselves and their lives in the flesh first, he won't, he will turn as over to our reprobate minds as seen in Romans 1

Yet, which is it that actually grants salvation? Is it granted BY the grace of God from where the gift of salvation originates? Or Is it granted BY the faith we have which is the conduit through which it is received?

By the grace of God, through faith

Once we are sealed by the Holy Spirit we WILL obey God, because we will be a new creation: loving what He loves and hating what He hates.
Christ's continual intercession for us to the Father is what sustains our salvation, not our obedience.

Well you'd think so wouldn't you? But how many do you see that profess with their lips but live to the contrary? I've seen many say they believe and that they love God, but they love their lives more and they don't act very "Christianly!"

We are sealed with the Spirit whilst we continue in God's goodness, and live by his will. Once we turn from him, we are no longer sealed.

It is impossible to turn away from God once we have known Him. "Eternal" life is to know God and Jesus whom he has sent. If we turn away from God, it is because we do not know him to begin with, no matter how many good works and obedience have been performed. (See Hebrews chapter 6)

I think you mean the following, which actually means the opposite of what you are saying, it means that it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have been partakers of the Holy Ghost and known the word of God, if they should fall away, to repent again. Seeing as they crucify the son of God afresh to put him to an open shame!

Hebrews 6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Amen to the first sentence! However, since the flesh and the world are "of the devil" as you put it, it is implied that if we choose to live by the will of them, we never accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ or have known God to begin with...

Ah that's not true, I've known people who were staunch Christians and church goers, and they are now atheists, surely if they were once saved always saved then they would still believe?

And please don't say they were never saved in the first place, because that's just not right, we can turn away from God and fall because we lust after the flesh again. God strengthens us as long as we live by his will.

Jesus clearly says that those who live by the will of the father, enter into the kingdom of heaven, so we have a choice, live by God's will or not!

We have to obey from the beginning of what? If it is to obtain salvation, it must be from the beginning of our lives, never falling a single time until our death. We know this to be impossible. Moreover, in order for us to have the ability to obey, we had to have been given life before hand. Since God is immutable, and everything in the physical is a type of the spiritual, why do we think that spiritual birth is any different than our physical birth? If we need to be given physical life before we can do anything physically, it follows that we must also need to be given spiritual life before we can do anything spiritually. It is impossible for us to please God outside of the imputed righteousness of Christ.

We have to obey as soon as we hear the word of God, we either believe and repent or not. One of the first things that Paul said when he saw the light of Christ in the way to Damascus, was, what will you have me to do Lord, and that's what we should all be like once we are enlightened. Put God and Christ first in our lives and live by the will of God.

I know the power of the Spirit, and what is like to be reborn, because I'm dead to my old life and because he's helping me to overcome my flesh daily, but I also know that if I turn away and go back to my old life, that I can't expect God just to be ok with that!

Amen, but all of the above is because God has given the life of Christ in God's children, not to sustain the life of Christ in God's children.



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[NWL]

So you do not say I did not answer you.

Spoiler

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other:

A) In the OT:
Gen. 1:1-3,26f; 11:7; 19:24; Neh. 9:20; Ps. 2:1-9; Prov. 30:4; Isa 6:8; 48:16; 63:11; Dan. 7:13f; Zech. 2:8-3:2.

B) In the Gospels:
Matt. 3:16; 4:1,6; 11:25-27; 12:32f; 14:23; 16:16f; 17:5; 22:44; 26:39,42; 27:46; 28:18f; Mark 1:1,8; 12:36; 13:32; 15:34; 16:19; Luke 4:18; 6:12; 11:13; 20:42f; 23:34,46; John 1:1f; 3:16-18,34-36; 5:19-23,26f,30f,36-38,43-45; 6:27,37-46; 8:17f; 11:41f: 13:1; 14:6,16f,23-31; 15:26; 16:13-16,25-28,32; 17:1-28; 20:17,21f.

C) In the Book of Acts:
Acts 2:22-36; 3:13-15, 19f, 26; 4:24-30; 7:55f; 10:34-42; 13:33-37; 15:8; 17:30f; 20:21.

D) In the Pauline Epistles:
Rom. 1:1-9; 1Cor. 1:1-9; 2:10f; 15:23-28; 2 Cor. 1:1-3; 2:14f; 3:3-6; 5:18-21; 13:14; Gal. 1:1-5; 4:4-6; Eph. 1:2-23; 2:1-10,18; 3:14-21; 4:4-6; 5:1f; 6:23; Phil. 1:2,11; 2:5-11; Col. 1:2f,19f; 2:2; 3:1; 1Thes. 1:1,3; 4:8; 5:9; 2Thes. 1:2; 2:13-17; 1Tim. 1:1f; 2Tim. 1:1f; 4:1; Tit 1:4; Phlm. 1:3.

So which one on those scripture teaches the trinity? I can see multiple verse that speak of Jesus, the Father and the HS, but I didn't see any verses that state anything along the line or even imply that God is one who is three persons.

 

[lifeisgood]

Actually, that would be classified as insulting. I have given up trying to help GT (she is blocked now to remove the temptation) but would you at least desist for both your sake and mine? Even the best of spirits would have trouble responding positively to how you are confronting her, and GT is not the best of spirits.

No, Rosenritter, that is not insulting, that is what projects from gt's responses.
When I insult anyone I will let them know I am insulting them.
gt is arrogant, smug, conceited, pompous, presumptuous, egotistical, proud, puffed up, self-important, stuck up one and that is not an insult.

 

[NWL]

NWL, you are still arguing tooth and nail against passages that plainly state that God was visible in manifest form to Abraham. If you're not ready to accept something so small, you wouldn't make a huge leap and adopt "Trinity" even if there were such a passage. Be realistic now.

Scripture clearly states no man has seen God or can see God, you deny this by claiming God was seen by Abraham.

As I've made out to you previously I hold that the three persons who appeared to Abraham were representatives of Jehovah, with one of those three persons being a direct spokesperson for Jehovah when speaking to Abraham.

One cannot accept that Abraham literally saw God when scripture clearly and unquestionably states no man HAS or CAN see God. Texts that say such things cannot be understood any other way expect for how they read on face value. However there are clear examples in the bible where people speak on behalf of their sender AS the sender themselves. Since you cannot have to opposing statement that are both correct, with the "no man has seen God" being an ultimate truth, the appearance of God to persons in the OT must be in relation to representatives of God, this is the only possible explanation for the bible to NOT contradict itself.

(1 Timothy 6:16) "..the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.."

 

[lifeisgood]

Would you tell us what that means to you? Does it help you keep his commandments of Love God and Love thy Neighbor, to exercise faith and repentance, to recognize Jesus as both Lord and Christ?

Rosenritter, God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. That is what the Trinity/Triunity of God means.

Father — Galatians 1:1; Son — John 20:28; Spirit — Acts 5:3-4

Jesus' baptism—Matthew 3:13-17 (voice of the Father, Son baptized, Spirit descending like a dove).

Salvation—1 Peter 1:2 (chosen by the Father, sanctified by the Spirit, sprinkled with the blood of Jesus).

Sanctification—2 Corinthians 13:14 (grace of the Lord Jesus, love of God, fellowship of the Holy Spirit).

Christian Baptism—Matthew 28:19 (baptized in one name, yet three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Prayer—Ephesians 3:14-21 (strengthened by his Spirit, know the love of Christ, filled with the fullness of God).

Christian Growth—2 Thessalonians 2:13 (chosen by God, loved by the Lord, sanctified by the Spirit).

What else would I need. It is not a question.

 

[lifeisgood]

I'm pretty sure she tries to abide by the two commands. It can be a hard task for any at times; especially those under constant bombardment.

It would nice to move conversation back to the Trinity doctrine and it's relevance.

to be saved popsthebuilder?
That is the contention. gt says that a person that has never ever heard the Gospel must obey to be saved.

Trinity/Triunity of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

 

[lifeisgood]

It isn't searing your own mind by obeying God.

Obey to be saved, gt?

When was the last time you obeyed Jesus by going to the temple and showing yourself to the High Priest, gt? You say you obey ALL of Jesus' commandments. That is one of Jesus' commandments.

How do you ever get that about someone who teaches that we have to obey Jesus?

When was the last time you, gt, went outside and told someone who has never heard the glorious Gospel, 'you must obey Jesus to be saved'? When was the last time you had any success on that front?

How do you ever get that the gospel is we no longer have to obey?

The Holy Spirit will come and teach only a BEliever.

By your standard a UNbeliever is indwelled with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is guiding a UNbeliever. Think about that for a while, gt. Think about that.

 

[lifeisgood]

I couldn't care any less what you think of me.

Just like Paul.

Now you are comparing yourself to Paul?

 

[lifeisgood]

Is this a repeat post? How about we talk about the trinity?

You said to ask questions. I did. I can see that is not what you meant.

 

[lifeisgood]

What kind of spirit do you think you have going around judging everyone, and falsely at that?

The only one that has that particular spirit, gt, is you.

I told you what comes out of your own words.

 

[lifeisgood]

So which one on those scripture teaches the trinity? I can see multiple verse that speak of Jesus, the Father and the HS, but I didn't see any verses that state anything along the line or even imply that God is one who is three persons.

All of them for those who are not blinded by their own two little hands.

 

[popsthebuilder]

to be saved popsthebuilder?
That is the contention. gt says that a person that has never ever heard the Gospel must obey to be saved.

Trinity/Triunity of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

I had never heard the gospel when I was atheist. I didn't know it was God's will for me to be greived and sorrowed to the point of wishing for death, and recognizing my inability to wholly do what I knew was right on my own. I had no clue all I needed to do was hope of the Lord, and call to GOD for help. Really I don't even know if what I did was any sort of prerequisite at all, but I do know that I'd I had never hoped then I would have never received.



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[popsthebuilder]

Obey to be saved, gt?

When was the last time you obeyed Jesus by going to the temple and showing yourself to the High Priest, gt? You say you obey ALL of Jesus' commandments. That is one of Jesus' commandments.

The temple is the body and the high priest is Christ. I'm sure she has entered the inner temple and showed herself to the Christ.

When was the last time you, gt, went outside and told someone who has never heard the glorious Gospel, 'you must obey Jesus to be saved'? When was the last time you had any success on that front?



The Holy Spirit will come and teach only a BEliever.
No.

By your standard a UNbeliever is indwelled with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is guiding a UNbeliever. Think about that for a while, gt. Think about that.

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[lifeisgood]

I had never heard the gospel when I was atheist. I didn't know it was God's will for me to be greived and sorrowed to the point of wishing for death, and recognizing my inability to wholly do what I knew was right on my own. I had no clue all I needed to do was hope of the Lord, and call to GOD for help. Really I don't even know if what I did was any sort of prerequisite at all, but I do know that I'd I had never hoped then I would have never received.

Oh, please, popsthebuilder.

Where does God say that a UNbeliever has to be grieved and sorrowed to the point of wishing for death so that the UNbeliever recognizes his/her inability to wholly do what he/she knew it was right on his/her own? Do you hear yourself, popsthebuilder?

All you said above is you glorifying yourself. Look what happened to me, popsthebuilder, I was so unhappy being an atheist, and then, all of sudden, out of nowhere, I, popsthebuilder, realized I was a UNbeliever, and then I, popsthebuilder, did something about it. Oh, pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, popsthebuilder.

The only prerequisite of God is that when we hear the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ we believe that is is ONLY through Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary that God will save us, nothing we do will move God to save a person unless belief in Jesus Christ we believe that is is ONLY through Jesus Christ and His finished/completed work on the Cross of Calvary. For this and this reason alone, did Jesus come to this earth. You sound exactly like gt. Going in your merry way providing your own way of salvation rejecting the only God's only way of salvation.

And you will have to pardon me, but I am not going to spend another whole day responding to your posts and then be told that I did not answer your questions.

I will not respond to all of your posts, only the ones I wish to respond to.

 

[lifeisgood]

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???

 

[NWL]

Job doesn't say that he will see God before his death. That's something you added into your reading of the passage. Your reading requires that verses 25 and 26 be divorced from each other, entirely unrelated. These words are obviously part of the same thought: God lives, he shall return, and Job will die, yet in his flesh he is going to see God when he returns.

Job 19:25-27 KJV
(25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Verse 26 was not given in the sense of having foreknowledge that God was about to appear... if you remember, God entered the conversation rather abruptly. Look at verse 26, because "yet in my flesh shall I see God" is predicated by the condition of "And thou after my skin worms destroy this body...."

Thus, verse 26 is not fulfilled until after worms consume the body of Job.

The entire passage, verses 25-27, is a future prophecy of God's visible setting foot on earth, and his own resurrection.

My reading of the verse encompasess both passages. As already stated Job stated "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God". Job clearly stated that he knows his redeemer is alive, that the redeemer will stand in the last days after his flesh is gone YET in his flesh he will see God, Job states he will see God in his flesh as in he will see God whilst he is alive.

Again you claim Job said "God lives", Job did NOT say this, Job stated his redeemer lives. To claim that that the redeemer is the "God" of v26 is an assumption. Jesus was the redeemer, you belief that Jesus is almighty God thus you assume that the redeemer is God and that this is what Job was referring to in v26. I believe the Jesus is NOT almighty God but is the redeemer, thus the verse is understood without the assumptions you place on the verse, I understand the scripture for how it plainly reads, you do not.

Why this objection?... "Man cannot see God?" Perhaps man cannot see the invisible God, as he exists outside of earth, but God can be seen by the naked eye when he wills it to be. Exodus 33:11, "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend" and again,

As I've said before you knowledge of the scriptures is elementary. NOT trash talking just an observation.

Moses NEVER saw Gods face to face literally, Exodus is talking about seeing God figuratively, Gods glory is too great for man to see. Exodus 33:11 states "Jehovah spake unto Moses face to face", NOT ten verse later Moses asks to see Jehovah's glory and God himself states, "I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah; and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.” But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”(Exo 33:18-20). God no doubt spoke to Moses through an Angel. Their interactions were so close and real that it was as if God was speaking with Moses face to face.

On another occasion God spoke to the whole camp of Israel from a cloud, "And Jehovah said to Moses: “Look! I am coming to you in a dark cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and so that they may always put faith in you as well. (Exo 19:9), God did NOT appear to the nation of Israel but spoke to them by means of this cloud that represented him, yet what does the Bible say about this interaction? It states this, "Jehovah spoke face-to-face with you [the nation of Israel] in the mountain, out of the fire. 5 I [Moses] was standing between Jehovah and you at that time.." (Deuteronomy 5:4, 5) They saw God face-to-face, this does NOT mean that they literally saw God since the verse cleary shows they didn't, they only saw a cloud.

Even the NT proclaims that Moses spoke not to God, but to an Angel, with this Angel no doubt being the representative of God. Acts 7:37,38 states “This is the Moses..This is the one who came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Siʹnai", v53 goes onto say that the nation of Israel through Moses "received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it". Yet, when we read the accounts in the OT it states Jehovah gave Moses the Law. Since the bible cannot contradict itself the Angel must have been representatives of God and is thus spoken of as God since he is carrying out the actions for God.

I suspect it is because the concept of God visible in the flesh seems too dangerous for you to allow...

Its not too dangerous for me to allow its just that the context of the Bible shows that it cannot be the case.

However, if you can explain how Job can fulfill his prophecy of "

Without his skin and body being destroyed by worms, and his reins being consumed within him, then I could see how "yet in my flesh shall I see God" would have already been fulfilled. That event was spoken in the context of total destruction of Job and dissolution after death. I haven't heard anyone explain it as you did, and as such I suspect that your explanation owes more to avoiding the equivalence that Job foreshadowed of God and He whom we now call Christ.

I don't understand you question? Please rephrase it so I can better understand it. I think your problem again lies with your old English translation, this is how the verse convey the writers words:

NET: My heart grows faint within me.
NLT: I am overwhelmed at the thought!
NWT: But deep inside I feel overwhelmed!
NASV: My heart faints within me!
ASV: My heart is consumed within me.

 

[popsthebuilder]

???

Look more closely at both posts.

No prerequisite. No doing of my own.

Only hope and acceptance of need.

Romans: 5. 6. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


What now?

I did nothing and was undeserving.

I don't expect you to know of sorrow or repentance. Count it a blessing.

???

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