The Trinity

The Trinity


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Bright Raven

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I can prove everything I say with scripture.

Don't think so. Prove Jesus is the Father when scripture says;

Matthew 3:16-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Matthew 17:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”
 

God's Truth

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Don't think so. Prove Jesus is the Father when scripture says;

Matthew 3:16-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Matthew 17:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”

God the Father came as a Son of Man in the flesh; who but the Father in heaven should man pray to?

Here are scriptures that tell us Jesus is the Father:

Scriptures that say Jesus is God the Father:


See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.


The ROCK that FATHERED them was Christ.

Jesus says those who overcome he will be their GOD and they will be his CHILDREN.


See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.


If we are Jesus' children, then he is our Father.


John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Did you read that scripture? Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans?

Jesus says when you SEE him, you have SEEN the Father.


See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.

That means when we see Jesus, we can say, "I see the Father."

God says Jesus will be called God, Father, and Holy Spirit. So that is what I call Jesus.


Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Malachi 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

WHO created them? Jesus did and the scripture calls him the Father.

This scripture is where Jesus explains to them that according to the Spirit, Jesus is God the Father.

Matthew 22:43 Jesus said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him Lord? For he says: 44‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies under Your feet.”’ 45 So if David calls Him Lord, how can He be David’s son?”
 

Bright Raven

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I guess according to you that the Father was talking to Himself. I don't think so.

Are Jesus and the Father the Same?

Jesus said that we can see the Father when we look at Him (Jesus). He also said that He and the Father are one. What did Jesus mean by those statements? Does it mean that He and the Father are exactly the same?

In order to answer that question, we need to first look at the differences between the Father and the Son in the New Testament.

Jesus had a body; the Father is a Spirit
Jesus is the Son, submissive to the Father
Jesus experienced human limitations; the Father has never been limited
Some say that Jesus and the Father are simply different “modes” of the same God (modalism). However, in His high-priestly prayer to His Father, Jesus describes an intimate, personal relationship that has existed throughout eternity (John 17:5, NCV).

“And now, Father, give me glory with you; give me the glory I had with you before the world was made.”

Jesus’ prayer reveals that He existed as a distinct, eternal person with His Father in eternity past. In fact, Hebrews 13:8 tells us that, like the Father, Jesus never had a beginning. “Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.”

In other words, there never was a time when Jesus Christ existed in a different mode of God or as a different person. When He took on humanity, His deity remained the same.

So, what did Jesus mean by saying that we can see the Father when we look at Him?

When we see a person (although we can’t see the mind or soul) we recognize him or her by observing their face. The smile or frown tells us what the person is thinking. We identify a person’s uniqueness by his or her face.

That’s the illustration Jesus used in John 14:9. In Hebrews 1:1-4, Jesus is spoken of as the “radiance of the glory of God, the flawless expression of the nature of God.”

“God, who gave our forefathers many different glimpses of the truth in the words of the prophets, has now, at the end of the present age, given us the truth in the Son. Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son he has ordained that all creation shall ultimately belong. This Son, radiance of the glory of God, flawless expression of the nature of God, himself the upholding principle of all that is, effected in person the reconciliation between God and man and then took his seat at the right hand of the majesty on high—thus proving himself, by the more glorious name that he has won, far greater than all the angels of God.”

In this passage, Jesus is called, “the flawless expression of the nature of God.” He is also the one through whom God created everything, and is called “far greater than all the angels of God.”

Later in Hebrews 1:8, Jesus is actually called, “God” by His Father.

So, is Jesus another God than the Father, or the same God? Jesus never claimed to be another God, but He did claim to be God on several occasions (See “Did Jesus Claim to Be God?”)

Jesus also said that He and the Father are one (John 10:30). Some say that what Jesus really meant by that statement is that He and the Father are in agreement with each other. However, in context, that can’t be Jesus’ meaning.

His audience, the Jewish religious leaders would have welcomed Jesus being in agreement with God. But when Jesus claimed to be one with His Father, they became incensed and tried to kill him. Their anger reveals that Jesus was claiming to be God.

So, how do we answer the question, “Are Jesus and the Father the same?”

Although they are different persons, they are one in their deity. Jesus and the Father share the following attributes (Philippians 2:5-11 tells us that Jesus limited Himself while in his human body):

They are both eternal beings
They both were involved in creation
They are both holy in character
They are both called God
They both are infinite, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent
They are both called “Yahweh,” “Alpha and Omega,” “The First and the Last,” “The Beginning and the End,” “Savior,” “Lord,” “King,” and “Eternal Father.”
The Bible teaches that Jesus and the Father are distinct persons, yet one God. This is a mystery we must accept by faith. Paul writes of it to the Colossians (1:15-17, NCV).

“No one can see God, but Jesus Christ is exactly like him. He ranks higher than everything that has been made. Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ. He was there before anything was made, and all things continue because of him. He is the head of the body, which is the church. Everything comes from him. He is the first one who was raised from the dead. So in all things Jesus has first place.”

Jesus promised that all who put their trust in Him will live forever. (From y-jesus.com)
 
God the Father came as a Son of Man in the flesh; who but the Father in heaven should man pray to?

Here are scriptures that tell us Jesus is the Father:

Scriptures that say Jesus is God the Father:


See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.


The ROCK that FATHERED them was Christ.

Jesus says those who overcome he will be their GOD and they will be his CHILDREN.


See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.


If we are Jesus' children, then he is our Father.


John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Did you read that scripture? Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans?

Jesus says when you SEE him, you have SEEN the Father.


See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.

That means when we see Jesus, we can say, "I see the Father."

God says Jesus will be called God, Father, and Holy Spirit. So that is what I call Jesus.


Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Malachi 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

WHO created them? Jesus did and the scripture calls him the Father.

This scripture is where Jesus explains to them that according to the Spirit, Jesus is God the Father.

Matthew 22:43 Jesus said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him Lord? For he says: 44‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, until I put Your enemies under Your feet.”’ 45 So if David calls Him Lord, how can He be David’s son?”

You seem to have forgotten Isaiah 43:11...


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 

popsthebuilder

New member
I guess according to you that the Father was talking to Himself. I don't think so.

Are Jesus and the Father the Same?

Jesus said that we can see the Father when we look at Him (Jesus). He also said that He and the Father are one. What did Jesus mean by those statements? Does it mean that He and the Father are exactly the same?

In order to answer that question, we need to first look at the differences between the Father and the Son in the New Testament.

Jesus had a body; the Father is a Spirit
Jesus is the Son, submissive to the Father
Jesus experienced human limitations; the Father has never been limited
Some say that Jesus and the Father are simply different “modes” of the same God (modalism). However, in His high-priestly prayer to His Father, Jesus describes an intimate, personal relationship that has existed throughout eternity (John 17:5, NCV).

“And now, Father, give me glory with you; give me the glory I had with you before the world was made.”

Jesus’ prayer reveals that He existed as a distinct, eternal person with His Father in eternity past. In fact, Hebrews 13:8 tells us that, like the Father, Jesus never had a beginning. “Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.”

In other words, there never was a time when Jesus Christ existed in a different mode of God or as a different person. When He took on humanity, His deity remained the same.

So, what did Jesus mean by saying that we can see the Father when we look at Him?

When we see a person (although we can’t see the mind or soul) we recognize him or her by observing their face. The smile or frown tells us what the person is thinking. We identify a person’s uniqueness by his or her face.

That’s the illustration Jesus used in John 14:9. In Hebrews 1:1-4, Jesus is spoken of as the “radiance of the glory of God, the flawless expression of the nature of God.”

“God, who gave our forefathers many different glimpses of the truth in the words of the prophets, has now, at the end of the present age, given us the truth in the Son. Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son he has ordained that all creation shall ultimately belong. This Son, radiance of the glory of God, flawless expression of the nature of God, himself the upholding principle of all that is, effected in person the reconciliation between God and man and then took his seat at the right hand of the majesty on high—thus proving himself, by the more glorious name that he has won, far greater than all the angels of God.”

In this passage, Jesus is called, “the flawless expression of the nature of God.” He is also the one through whom God created everything, and is called “far greater than all the angels of God.”

Later in Hebrews 1:8, Jesus is actually called, “God” by His Father.

So, is Jesus another God than the Father, or the same God? Jesus never claimed to be another God, but He did claim to be God on several occasions (See “Did Jesus Claim to Be God?”)

Jesus also said that He and the Father are one (John 10:30). Some say that what Jesus really meant by that statement is that He and the Father are in agreement with each other. However, in context, that can’t be Jesus’ meaning.

His audience, the Jewish religious leaders would have welcomed Jesus being in agreement with God. But when Jesus claimed to be one with His Father, they became incensed and tried to kill him. Their anger reveals that Jesus was claiming to be God.

So, how do we answer the question, “Are Jesus and the Father the same?”

Although they are different persons, they are one in their deity. Jesus and the Father share the following attributes (Philippians 2:5-11 tells us that Jesus limited Himself while in his human body):

They are both eternal beings
They both were involved in creation
They are both holy in character
They are both called God
They both are infinite, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent
They are both called “Yahweh,” “Alpha and Omega,” “The First and the Last,” “The Beginning and the End,” “Savior,” “Lord,” “King,” and “Eternal Father.”
The Bible teaches that Jesus and the Father are distinct persons, yet one God. This is a mystery we must accept by faith. Paul writes of it to the Colossians (1:15-17, NCV).

“No one can see God, but Jesus Christ is exactly like him. He ranks higher than everything that has been made. Through his power all things were made—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ. He was there before anything was made, and all things continue because of him. He is the head of the body, which is the church. Everything comes from him. He is the first one who was raised from the dead. So in all things Jesus has first place.”

Jesus promised that all who put their trust in Him will live forever. (From y-jesus.com)
What?

To see what Jesus meant we need to have a spiritual mindset. He was filled with the Holy Spirit of GOD utterly, past the extent that the human vessel can even hold so that it flowed outwardly and was reflected in all He did, by the leave and Will of GOD. No complex explanation needed.

Same Spirit.

While man the Christ of GOD was of GOD; upon resurrection He returned to GOD from where He originally emanated.

peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk
 

Rosenritter

New member
I'm seriously contesting people twisting the word of God to their own purpose.

When a house is built on a faulty foundation, you must go back to the foundation. Are you wanting to join her in her kinder garten class so she can figure out why Jesus is not the Father? Perhaps you do? :think:

Are you just arguing for for argument's sake, or for the purpose of kindergarten name-calling?

I responded with three statements and a question. Since you choose to answer, do you contest any one of those statements, and what is your plain answer to the question?

1. When the Bible means to say that God has come in the flesh, it makes special mention that God has come in the flesh. (agree/disagree)
2.
"The Father is Spirit" ought to be an an uncontested statement. (agree/disagree)
3.
I don't think anyone here would argue against that. (agree/disagree)

Q: Are you seriously contesting this issue? (yes/no)

If you cannot respond in a civil fashion, silence would be more becoming.
 

Bright Raven

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What?

To see what Jesus meant we need to have a spiritual mindset. He was filled with the Holy Spirit of GOD utterly, past the extent that the human vessel can even hold so that it flowed outwardly and was reflected in all He did, by the leave and Will of GOD. No complex explanation needed.

Same Spirit.

While man the Christ of GOD was of GOD; upon resurrection He returned to GOD from where He originally emanated.

peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

So are Jesus and the Father the same entity?
 

Rosenritter

New member
These three are one isn't good enough for you? Well, I'm not surprised.

This is simply a matter of fact. 1 John 5:7 does not teach Trinity doctrine, because it is also also compatible (or even more fitting) for other views. Here's an acknowledgment from a Trinitarian website:

http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp

The growing religion that became known as Roman Catholic, after many debates eventually agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity. So they had no reason to remove 1 John 5:7 from their Bibles, since it supported what they taught. But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called "Sabellianism," and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.
 
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Rosenritter

New member
As if "the dictionary" is the standard by which we are to judge. Once again you show your contempt for the the Word of God.


Once AGAIN, you are more concerned with "how someone uses the word today" then what the Bible says that it means.


So now you want me to take this webpage over the Bible? No, I'll stick with the Bible and the way that IT defines the words.

A little upset, you sound. Don't visit the website then (you probably would have liked it though.) Would it help if you had another few examples?

Jesus and Christ are used as modern synonyms. The Son and the Word are also used as synonyms (evidence for this goes back to the first couple centuries after Christ.) This is simply the reality. If you are going to participate in a forum where English is the primary language, you need to know what the modern applications, and don't jump on someone who is using them without their normal sense.

If you want to debate ancient and/or technical meanings, specify that up front and all is well.
 

God's Truth

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I guess according to you that the Father was talking to Himself. I don't think so.

There ares three, remember?

Are Jesus and the Father the Same?

They are exactly the same.

Jesus said that we can see the Father when we look at Him (Jesus). He also said that He and the Father are one. What did Jesus mean by those statements? Does it mean that He and the Father are exactly the same?

That is right.

In order to answer that question, we need to first look at the differences between the Father and the Son in the New Testament.

Jesus had a body; the Father is a Spirit

Jesus is that Spirit. I gave you scriptures that said that.

Jesus is the Son, submissive to the Father

God the Father came as a submissive Son.

Jesus experienced human limitations; the Father has never been limited

God the Father came as a human.
Some say that Jesus and the Father are simply different “modes” of the same God (modalism). However, in His high-priestly prayer to His Father, Jesus describes an intimate, personal relationship that has existed throughout eternity (John 17:5, NCV).

There are three and Jesus was God the Father with a body since before the creation of anything. The Father made the creation through that body.

“And now, Father, give me glory with you; give me the glory I had with you before the world was made.”

Jesus’ prayer reveals that He existed as a distinct, eternal person with His Father in eternity past. In fact, Hebrews 13:8 tells us that, like the Father, Jesus never had a beginning. “Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.”

In other words, there never was a time when Jesus Christ existed in a different mode of God or as a different person. When He took on humanity, His deity remained the same.
Sounds like you contradicted yourself.

So, what did Jesus mean by saying that we can see the Father when we look at Him?

When we see a person (although we can’t see the mind or soul) we recognize him or her by observing their face. The smile or frown tells us what the person is thinking. We identify a person’s uniqueness by his or her face.

That’s the illustration Jesus used in John 14:9. In Hebrews 1:1-4, Jesus is spoken of as the “radiance of the glory of God, the flawless expression of the nature of God.”

“God, who gave our forefathers many different glimpses of the truth in the words of the prophets, has now, at the end of the present age, given us the truth in the Son. Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son he has ordained that all creation shall ultimately belong. This Son, radiance of the glory of God, flawless expression of the nature of God, himself the upholding principle of all that is, effected in person the reconciliation between God and man and then took his seat at the right hand of the majesty on high—thus proving himself, by the more glorious name that he has won, far greater than all the angels of God.”

In this passage, Jesus is called, “the flawless expression of the nature of God.” He is also the one through whom God created everything, and is called “far greater than all the angels of God.”

Later in Hebrews 1:8, Jesus is actually called, “God” by His Father.

So, is Jesus another God than the Father, or the same God? Jesus never claimed to be another God, but He did claim to be God on several occasions (See “Did Jesus Claim to Be God?”)

Jesus is the same one and only God. There is only one God and He is the Father.

Jesus also said that He and the Father are one (John 10:30). Some say that what Jesus really meant by that statement is that He and the Father are in agreement with each other. However, in context, that can’t be Jesus’ meaning.

His audience, the Jewish religious leaders would have welcomed Jesus being in agreement with God. But when Jesus claimed to be one with His Father, they became incensed and tried to kill him. Their anger reveals that Jesus was claiming to be God.

So, how do we answer the question, “Are Jesus and the Father the same?”

Although they are different persons, they are one in their deity. Jesus and the Father share the following attributes (Philippians 2:5-11 tells us that Jesus limited Himself while in his human body):

They are both eternal beings
They both were involved in creation
They are both holy in character
They are both called God
They both are infinite, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent
They are both called “Yahweh,” “Alpha and Omega,” “The First and the Last,” “The Beginning and the End,” “Savior,” “Lord,” “King,” and “Eternal Father.”
The Bible teaches that Jesus and the Father are distinct persons, yet one God. This is a mystery we must accept by faith. Paul writes of it to the Colossians (1:15-17, NCV).
The scriptures show that they are exactly the same.
 

Bright Raven

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
There ares three, remember?



They are exactly the same.



That is right.



Jesus is that Spirit. I gave you scriptures that said that.



God the Father came as a submissive Son.



God the Father came as a human.


There are three and Jesus was God the Father with a body since before the creation of anything. The Father made the creation through that body.


Sounds like you contradicted yourself.



Jesus is the same one and only God. There is only one God and He is the Father.


The scriptures show that they are exactly the same.

You are one confused lady.
 

God's Truth

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You are one confused lady.

The three are one and the same how is that confusing?

They are exactly the same.

Jesus ONLY SAYS what the Father says.

Jesus ONLY DOES what the Father does.

Jesus does the same work.

Tell me how they are different, beside the obvious of one coming in the flesh.
 

Right Divider

Body part
A little upset, you sound.
Nope... but totally confused, you sound.

Don't visit the website then (you probably would have liked it though.) Would it help if you had another few examples?
Not if they're a bad as the "example" that you gave.

Jesus and Christ are used as modern synonyms.

  • We weren't talking about "Jesus" and "Christ"
  • Jesus IS THE Christ.
  • Once again you're confusing words where their meaning is CLEAR from the Bible
The Son and the Word are also used as synonyms (evidence for this goes back to the first couple centuries after Christ.) This is simply the reality. If you are going to participate in a forum where English is the primary language, you need to know what the modern applications, and don't jump on someone who is using them without their normal sense.
Your "modern" application is to twist the Bible into a pretzel based on your contempt for it.

If you want to debate ancient and/or technical meanings, specify that up front and all is well.
I'm not going to "debate" that ANOINTED and SAVIOR are NOT the same word. That is CLEAR to anyone without a preconceived need to say otherwise.

Jesus is:
  • The Word
  • The Christ
  • The Son of God
  • The King of Kings
  • The Lord of Lords
  • The Door
  • The Good Shepard
  • and many, many more.
That He is ALL of these things does NOT make all of these WORDS synonymous.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Are you kidding?

You don't know what to obey?

You don't know what to obey, yet the Gentiles heard what was taught by Moses.

Acts 15:20 Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood. 21For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

I am not under law.

hahahahahahaha They obey but they don't believe?! LOL

Yes, they do obey, but they do not believe. They obey that Jesus said to go two by two, however, they do not believe Him.

Jesus tells us to believe. If they obey then they ARE BELIEVING.

When are you going to believe Him and accept His rest and stop working for your salvation.

You don't know what to obey until after you are saved and have the Holy Spirit?

No, I do not know what the Lord wants me to obey until the Holy Spirit comes in and teaches me.

The gospel message tells us what to obey.

Yes. Believe Jesus Christ and His completed/finished on the Cross of Calvary and he Holy Spirit will come and indwell you and teach you and make you understand what God wants from you, etc.

Mormons do NOT obey Jesus.

Jesus says no other gospel.

Mormons believe in another gospel.

If you cannot see that they obey Jesus’ commandment to go two by two, then you have never met a Mormon coming to your door. However, they do not believe Jesus at all.

Go ahead and try to tell me about other ones! LOL

I will prove further that you wrong.

Hah!
 

lifeisgood

New member
You use a scripture that REBUKES you.

You say there are three distinct/different.

The old testament scriptures say there is only ONE and NO ONE BESIDES HIM, and NO ONE LIKE HIM.

You say there are three and the three are like each other but not the same.

You say the the two are besides the Father.

God disproves you.
Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Eloheem[PLURAL] is one[SINGULAR] Jehovah.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
So are Jesus and the Father the same entity?
Now.... GOD and the Christ are synonymous, both referring to what can be known of GOD by man, by the will of GOD through the Holy Spirit.
It all refers to the same Spirit as far as we are concerned.

The distinction for me comes when one claims man is the utter fullness of GOD as mortal man.

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk
 
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