The Trinity

The Trinity


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Rosenritter

New member
ARRRGHGGHGHGGGGH!

When I made the statement "so that I could show you how none of the persons in the trinity", I wasn't bringing the trinity argument back into the picture, I was in effect just saying "neither the Father, Son or HS appeared". Since you believe in the trinity, (although you don't believe it is clearly expressed in scripture) I felt comfortable saying it in this manner.

Have you ever tried LISTENING to someone for a moment before you write four thousand word responses? Or if not that, at least asking someone what they believe rather than just telling them?

Here, if you can prove that I believe in the trinity, I promise to continue reading the rest of your post. Deal? Otherwise, you disqualified your argument by showing that you don't know who you are talking to and that you haven't been listening very well.
 
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Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
One would have to search for more authorities than Christ named for baptizing disciples. Matthew 20:18-20

The only one I have heard speculation about, is Mary . . about whom I strongly disagree with the RCC.
:AMR: You've heard someone speculate that the mother of God is God? And you dare to associate the Catholic Church in this idiotic blasphemy too? :AMR: :plain:
 

Lon

Well-known member
First, I will clarify that I have already heard this argument of yours before, and I've seen the twists it has to take in the process. I'll summarize your argument, as I understand and anticipate it, just to save some time. It's been a few years since I visited this but it should have the general jist of things:

1) The founding premise is that you wish to say "the bible never calls Jesus God" and you can try to evade most of them by claiming most everyplace is "Jesus is speaking on behalf of God" but you have some pesky verses that say precisely that Jesus is God without any potential for wiggle room. The answer? Attack the text itself in those select locations.

2) The solution lies in that if you look long and hard enough, you can find a damaged or defective manuscript. These are very few in number: the last I checked I think they numbered at a grand total of four. Four versus how many now? Attention is diverted away from their tiny number with a heated ongoing argument about a fifth, over whether a line was actually added to strengthen a fading light mark or whether the documentation lied and it was added anew.

3) This minority flawed reading could be the results of age upon the documents, or it is possible that someone made a flawed copy on purpose. Early on Marcion "the heretic" was known for his propensity for "editing the scripture with a penknife" and the New World Translation also inserts the word "Jehovah in the New Testament without claiming even one piece of manuscript evidence, so anything remains a possibility.

4) Proponents of the flawed minority manuscript neglect to mention that their resulting reading is flawed, grammatically or in not making normal sense. "Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh...." (majority text) makes sense because the mystery of God then explains about God. The flawed text that you prefer wouldn't make sense, "Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: 'He was made manifest in the flesh, ... " But who would "He" refer to? It would still be the subject of the previous verse, "God" (verse 15) and

5) Just to clarify, since you haven't defined this here, we are talking about whether a dash mark appears above one Greek letter, differentiating between whether the word is a pronoun "He" or designating the word for God, "Theos." Your argument also depends on the assumption that the original text was flawed, and a mass conspiracy long long ago endeavored to take this edit the word "He" out of our Bibles. It's actually far more likely that a light hand made a faded line or a tired copyist missed a single mark in these tiny few minority instances that you find so golden.
:think: Good observations and summation. I often see these too, have not seen them categorized. I think it is worth brushing up and keeping for future reference because I've seen these all in this very thread.

So you have an all-purpose escape to evade anything in Revelation? That you can break apart a statement said in a single breath into two parts, as soon as the speaker identifies himself for clarification? Brilliant, that would work on anything you wished. You have freedom to ignore the entire text that way.

Unless we assume that it was not His purpose to confuse us, but to clarify, and unless we assume that when Revelation uses identification, that it is for the purpose of identifying who has been speaking!
:up:
Try it! Try believing the Bible here where it speaks plainly. You won't have to make weird constructs to evade what it says in other places.
You could probably make a couple of more enumerated points of observation on these two and one or two that follow as well.
Yes. 1 Timothy 3:16 as well. The mystery is God in the Flesh.

Good presentation here and one every Unitarian should read. In Him -Lon
 

Lon

Well-known member
I personally think that those seven spirits are seven specific angels, but how could we know for sure?

My point being that if someone wants to be adamant that "God is only three persons" I would say "How do you know that?" because if one starts defining God thus, scripture doesn't say "God is only three persons" and even if "three persons" was assumed, there isn't an upper limit set for adding on more persons, etc etc etc. Just because you don't know of it now doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This isn't my difficulty, I am content to say "There is One God, and when he was manifest in the flesh we called him Jesus."
It has more to do with the -une of tri-une as well as not overtly adding to anything God says: If God ever tells me He is a septune, I'll get on board.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
:AMR: You've heard someone speculate that the mother of God is God? And you dare to associate the Catholic Church in this idiotic blasphemy too? :AMR: :plain:

Could be I know more about the corrupted RCC historical teachings, than you do.

You think?

BTW, you are correct to label the speculation as being blasphemous!

Mary is not co-redemptrix with or above Jesus Christ.
 

God's Truth

New member
I can think of reasons just as valid for Seven as those that say Three.



Revelation 3:1 KJV
(1) And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 KJV
(5) And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 KJV
(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

God is a Spirit, those that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth, and apparently God has seven spirits. One per person. See?

The three are one and the same.
 

God's Truth

New member
That is an interesting explanation, but does the Bible ever say "God is Three and is Limited to Three?" It doesn't, and that's what I'm getting at. By the same measure as one declares God is Three, there could just as easily be Seven or Twelve.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the three.
 

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Could be I know more about the corrupted RCC historical teachings, than you do.

You think?

BTW, you are correct to label the speculation as being blasphemous!

Mary is not co-redemptrix with or above Jesus Christ.
You're just an ignorant stubborn bigoted pill.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
That is an interesting explanation, but does the Bible ever say "God is Three and is Limited to Three?" It doesn't, and that's what I'm getting at. By the same measure as one declares God is Three, there could just as easily be Seven or Twelve.

I think you need to show proof of that.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I think you need to show proof of that.

OK, here's what I mean:
By the same measure as one declares God is Three, there could just as easily be Seven or Twelve.

Spoiler

And to clarify, my point here is not that I believe God is Seven or Twelve, but even if you were to allow "persons" in God, even if you were affirmatively told that certain "persons" existed, without a fixed upper limit there could be any amount. If I say I have three apples, I could have a whole bag of apples, and revealing that I do indeed have three apples doesn't mean I don't have more in my bag.

Revelation speaks of "seven spirits" about God's throne. The Lamb that was slain has seven horns and seven eyes, which it says are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 1:4 KJV
(4) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 KJV
(1) And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 KJV
(5) And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 KJV
(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

So Bright Raven, what do you have that says that God is three persons? And out of those, how many say that God is exclusively three persons, or that God is only three persons and never more and never less? Let me specify, I mean scripture, not creeds, confessions, or websites.

Now I don't interpret "seven spirits of God" that way, but someone else might. It makes about as much sense to me as your interpretation that God is three persons meaning three individuals who have always existed that have always referred to each other by different pronouns. Again, where's the solid scripture "Thus saith the LORD, I am three persons and no more, no less than three?" Not there. So without the scriptural absolute, what makes one persons musings better than someone else's? That's my point.

Again, to clarify, I am content to say that there is One God, and when He was made manifest in the flesh we called him Jesus.


This is a silly discussion so only open it if you really want to.
 

God's Truth

New member
OK, here's what I mean:


Spoiler

And to clarify, my point here is not that I believe God is Seven or Twelve, but even if you were to allow "persons" in God, even if you were affirmatively told that certain "persons" existed, without a fixed upper limit there could be any amount. If I say I have three apples, I could have a whole bag of apples, and revealing that I do indeed have three apples doesn't mean I don't have more in my bag.

Revelation speaks of "seven spirits" about God's throne. The Lamb that was slain has seven horns and seven eyes, which it says are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 1:4 KJV
(4) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 KJV
(1) And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 KJV
(5) And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 KJV
(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

So Bright Raven, what do you have that says that God is three persons? And out of those, how many say that God is exclusively three persons, or that God is only three persons and never more and never less? Let me specify, I mean scripture, not creeds, confessions, or websites.

Now I don't interpret "seven spirits of God" that way, but someone else might. It makes about as much sense to me as your interpretation that God is three persons meaning three individuals who have always existed that have always referred to each other by different pronouns. Again, where's the solid scripture "Thus saith the LORD, I am three persons and no more, no less than three?" Not there. So without the scriptural absolute, what makes one persons musings better than someone else's? That's my point.

Again, to clarify, I am content to say that there is One God, and when He was made manifest in the flesh we called him Jesus.


This is a silly discussion so only open it if you really want to.

You have been going against me for saying Jesus is God the Father in the flesh, but you just posted that is what you believe.

Jesus says that the Father, and he will live in the saved.

Jesus also says, "I and the Father are one".

That is proof that there are three spoken of and three we are to believe in for salvation.

Here are more scriptures proving we are to believe in the three as One:

2 Cor 1:21-22; 1 Cor 12:4-6; Eph 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:1-2; Matt 28:19; Matt 3:16-17; Romans 14:17-18; 1 John 5:8-8.
 

Rosenritter

New member
No, GT, I have not been "going against you" for saying Jesus is God the Father in the flesh. I have gone against you for being rude and disagreeable to people to no good effect.

You have been going against me for saying Jesus is God the Father in the flesh, but you just posted that is what you believe.

Jesus says that the Father, and he will live in the saved.

Jesus also says, "I and the Father are one".

That is proof that there are three spoken of and three we are to believe in for salvation.

Here are more scriptures proving we are to believe in the three as One:

2 Cor 1:21-22; 1 Cor 12:4-6; Eph 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:1-2; Matt 28:19; Matt 3:16-17; Romans 14:17-18; 1 John 5:8-8.
 
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