God's Truth
New member
I was speaking about the breath of life from God that gives us our spirit when we are conceived in the womb.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
NWL
Active member
I don't claim that you relied on the trinity doctrine when it comes to the book of hebrews, nor do I think you claim the book of Hebrews teaches the trinity. The point I'm making is that a book, regardless of written purpose can make or break a specific doctrine regarding statement it makes. For example Genesis 1 is NOT trying to teach us who God is, but a trinitarian will claim Gen 1:26 has hallmarks of the trinity. If a trinitarian were to make such a claim is that them claiming the book of Genesis is regards the trinity? Simply, No. Likewise Hebrews is not in regards the trinity, but does that mean that statements found within Hebrews can disprove or prove the trinity? Yes, can statements in Hebrews 1 disprove that Jesus is God? Yes.
Where are your thoughts regarding what type of God Jesus was in Hebrews 1 accordng to the application parrelled with the God, that referred to a man in Psalms 45:6?
My intention is not to deviate, nor do I believe its part of your argument. But its hard to talk about Jesus, whom you believe is God in the flesh , without brining the trinity into it since, Jesus as God in the flesh is part of the trinity.
The confusion is yours and it quite clear. Nowhere does scripture state God was manifest in the flesh and nowhere does Jesus state he is the Alpha and Omega these are both common misconceptions. You may be bringing your assumptions from other books and reading them into Hebrews 1.
Now we're getting somewhere, you are correct. Angel is synomous with a spirit. However I disagree with you that Joshua was called and angel, read Exodus 14:19, God used an angel to guide Israel when travleing, when doing so it travlled in front of them as pillar of cloud, this is unrealted to the duscssiion so wiil leave it as that.
Why do you completely forget to talk about the context I highlighted which has the context clearly talking about the inheritance relating to Jesus firstborn position?
(Hebrews 1:5, 6) "..For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him..”
(Deuteronomy 21:17) "..He should recognize as the firstborn the unloved one’s son by giving him the double portion of everything he has, for that one is the beginning of his procreative power. The right of the firstborn’s position belongs to him.."
Jesus, as Gods firstborn son, receives greater position than the rest of Gods spirit because of that unique position he holds. A firstborn to God has greater rights than that of other persons as shown in deut 21:17.
If the titles you’re referring to is in regards to the A&O (alpha and omega) then you are mistaken. Moreover, I do not deny that Jesus was involved in creation, but there’s a difference in being the creator and being the one whom the creator creates through. Jesus was an agent who God used to create the world through, hence why the writer uses Greek passive word forms in Col 1:16, such as ektisqh, showing that Christ did not create, but that things were created through him by another. It is for this reason most modern translations, not like the one you decided to use, state that things were created through Jesus in Col 1:16. Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 also show that things were created through Jesus by the creator.
No it does not. Stop reading from one translation, compare the verse with many other translations to get a better understanding of the verse, when you do you'll find that the statement "made like onto the Son of God" is in regards to him being priest for all time, it does not apply it to Jesus. Reading the verse in old english does not bring out the meaning of the orgianl languages as do translations in modern english.
Hebrews 7:3
NIV: There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors--no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God.
NLT: There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors--no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God.
ISV: He has no father, mother, or genealogy, no birth date recorded for him, nor a date of death. Like the Son of God, he continues to be a priest forever.
GWT: No one knows anything about Melchizedek's father, mother, or ancestors. No one knows when he was born or when he died. Like the Son of God, Melchizedek continues to be a priest forever.
Have you forgot the implications this makes. It says regarding Melchizedek that he remains a priest for all time, if this was the case then why would there need to be another priest whom Jesus was according to Hebrews 7:11, you keep evading the implications I keep bringing out.
Simple question, who said they were going to destroy Sodom and who destroyed Sodom? Did the two men lie when they said they were the ones who were going to destroy the city?
(Genesis 19:13,24) "..For we are going to destroy this place, because the outcry against them has indeed grown great before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to destroy the city... Then the Jehovah rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the Jehovah out of the heavens.."
Please also tell me what person of the trinity was the Jehovah who appeared to abraham, was it the father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
The reason why I'm asking about the identity of the three men because it explains whether writers of the bible make represenatives of someone speak as the person themselves. I orginally stated to Lon that Jesus was not the God of the OT since God only spoke through starting in the time period of the NT according to Hebrews 1:1,2. You made the point that God had in past times made himself manifest in the flesh previously. I denied this, claiming that God spoke by means of representives, that is what I'm currently trying to prove at present.
NWL
Active member
Rosenritter; said:
You're either playing dumb or being dishonest. Read the account again please, do so in a modern translation, try the NIV.
(Col 1:15-19) "..He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 And, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him.."
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation "because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Jesus is not the firstborn of creation because he's "the firstborn from the dead". Your attempt to explain Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation" because he's the firstborn of the dead doesn't explain anything, however, v16 does a perfect example of explaining why Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. I really don't get your original claim, its seems like it changed from your last post. At first it was v18 explained v15, now v16 explains v15 which is what I've claimed the whole time.
Then it makes no sense for Paul to use Greek Greek word dia with an intermediatery (through) meaning, when doing so he uses passive word forms in Col 1:16, such as ektisqh, showing that Christ did not create, but that things were created through (greek word: dia) him by another.
I do not deny that all things were made through Jesus, but these things made through Jesus were made by the Father. Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6 plainly state this. I don't get your issue with this? The fact that things were created through Jesus by the Father is undeniable based on grammar and the context of other verses such as the ones I've highlighted.
Again, to be part firstborn of a group you must be part of that group. I'm not suggesting Paul needs to speak as my family speaks but rather, as the Bible speaks. Please address the implications I made regarding firstborn and being part of the group your firstborn of.
Show me a single example in the bible, or in life for that matter, where someone is firstborn of a group, and they themselves are not part of that group?
Please answer me this also, if Jesus did NOT die, could it be said he is "firstborn from/of the dead", please explain your reasons.
Can a puppy be called the firstborn in a litter of kittens? If not then why not?
Here you go again linking scripture by the use of single word. I know you think you're making sense, but you are not.
Rev 3:14 stated Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. John 1:1 says Jesus was with God in the beginning. You can't just take the word beginning and assume its in relation to the same things even though the two scriptures apply the term to Jesus in completely different ways. Jesus is the beginning, beginning of what... of creation, by who... by God (Rev 3:14). Jesus in John 1:1 was simply IN the beginning with God, completetly two different things.
The act of creation through Jesus in John 1:3 is NOT the creation of Jesus by God as alluded to in Rev 3:14, Since the verse says it was Gods creation and NOT Jesus.
(Revelation 3:14) "..These are the things that [Jesus]the Amen says, [who is]...the beginning of the creation by God.."
(John 1:1) "..In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was thoes.."
It’ not evasion friend. The only accounts I know where Jesus calls himself the first and last are Rev 2:8 and Rev 1:17, both of which refer to Jesus being the first and last in relation to him dying and coming to life again. I don't find any scripture where the identity is that of Jesus who calls himself the first and last with no God beside him. If you would care to show me such a scripture I'd be more than happy review my understanding.
No, as already mentioned it was the father doing the creating through Jesus, as outlined by the grammar in Col 1:16 and from reviewing Hebrews 1:1,2 and 1 Cor 8:6
(1 Cor 8:6) "..yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live..2
(Hebrews 1:1, 2) "..God... Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.."]
Ok, can you then please state it again for all to see that you believe that God, who is from everlasting to everlasting, with no beginning or end, the infinite God was at some point without wisdom. :doh:
You can either have a God who is eternal, with his qualities also being eternal, or you can have a God who can acquire/possess qualities, thus meaning God is not eternal. Either God has always had his qualities or he hasn't, if he hasn’t then God isn't eternal.
Proverbs 8:22 states that God possessed/formed/made wisdom, since to an average Christian, not you of course, God has always had wisdom, the personified wisdom in Proverbs must be in regards to something else other than Gods own wisdom. Since Jesus is the "wisdom of God", and the context of Proverbs 8 parallels Jesus a lot (which I can show if need be), then it makes perfect sense that Jesus is the one whom is being personified as wisdom here.
Last edited:
NWL
Active member
:chuckle:
You have a habit with agreeing with people that don't make sense.
Also, I never suggested that what you said was directed at me, you're assuming that I thought that. I simply made the commment that what you said "reminded me" regards our previous discussion.
Regardless, an answer at some point would be nice.
NWL
Active member
I'll firstly start by saying the Trinity doctine teaches that Jehovah is One, that there is only one God. Jesus is not God, the Father is not God, the Holy spirit is not God, however, all three persons together equal the one God. The term trinity is synomonous with the terms "Jehovah" and "God", as in, Jesus isn't the trinity, nor the father or HS, however, all three persons together make the trinity. Likewise Jesus isn't Jehovah, nor the Father or HS, however, all three persons together make the one Jehovah. I don't think you'll find a secular source that states anything different in regards to what I just said.
Now, the first scripture I'll show is Isaiah 28:16, which reads "Therefore, this is what the Sovereign Jehovah says: "Look! I am placing a foundation stone in Jerusalem, a firm and tested stone. It is a precious cornerstone that is safe to build on. Whoever believes need never be shaken". As we can see Jehovah laid a foundation stone in Jerusalem, that foundation stone was Jesus as can be seen in Romans 10:10,11, "For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. 11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed" (see also Romans 9:33).
So here we have Jehovah laying a foundation stone, namely Jesus, in Jerusalem. Now what's your position? That Jesus is Jehovah according to v13? If Jesus was Jehovah in this account then it makes no sense why Paul would quote a scripture that seperates the person of Jesus and Jehovah in v11. Paul in effect implied that Jesus was not Jehovah, since it was Jehovah who laid Jesus as a foundation, thus Jesus, being that foundation, wasn't Jehovah who laid that foduntaion stone.
Romans 10:13 states '..For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved..', which is taken from Joel 2:32. Where in the passage of Romans 10 does it state this is applied to Jesus? It doesn't, this is simply your assumption that it does. We can see it doesn't apply to Jesus but is actually refernces God.
When we look at Romans 10:1 it says "Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.". Pauls says he prays to God for the salvation of Israel, this is what Romans 10:1-13 is about, the relationship of Israel (both Jew and Greek) with God. Romans 1:2-7 discusses the relationship Israel had with God. Romans 10:8,9 points out the way to Jehovah’s righteousness as provided through Jesus. In Romans 10:10,11 Pauls quotes Isaiah 28:16, which already proves Jesus ins't Jehovah. In Romans 10:12 Paul joins the God of Israel — the God and Father of Jesus — with the believing Greeks claiming that the Lord of Isaiah 28:16 is "lord over all". Again, the statement "for the same Lord is Lord of all" in Romans 10:12 is in regards to Jehovah and NOT Jesus.
This brings us to the scripture in question, Romans 10:13. Paul here makes reference to whoever will call upon the name of Jehovah will be saved. If we consider scriptures leading up to this scripture, it should be plain that Paul is making reference to Jehovah, the God of Israel, with whom both Jew and Gentile needs reconciliation. There is simply no language used to suggest that the term was being applied to Jesus. As shown the bulk of the text from Romans 10:1 leading up to Romans 10:13, it is in regards Israel coming into reconciliation with God, not according to the law but by faith.
Saxon Hammer
New member
I do not mind that you bring quotes out of the 'Bible' and yes it is a little ironic
We are talking about 'God's' words NOT passing away here. Of course if earth passed away the books of 'God' would be gone and STILL the word of 'God' would NOT pass away.
As I said the 'spirit is in the book' not the words of God as they are beyond us. We would write what we thought were 'God's word' but by necessity the 'words' would be in a language of MAN.
The living 'God' does NOT stand still and has sent many prophets, my concern with 'Christianity' is, that in looking too the past, 'Christianity' may not see the next prophet (or Jesus risen from the dead).
You will not find 'God' in the words of a bible BUT you may find the spirit of 'God' in reading the bible.
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
1 Thessalonians 5:23 I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
Lk. 2:11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Triunity doctrine teaches that Jesus "the SON" is GOD and the ONLY eternal "Body" of God. You sir, are bibtarded and poorly studied on biblical verses, or "Trinity Doctrine" for that matter.
Triunity doctrine teaches that Jesus "the Father" is GOD and the ONLY eternal "Spirit" of God. You sir, are bibtarded and poorly studied on biblical verses, or "Trinity Doctrine" for that matter.
Triunity doctrine teaches that Jesus "the Holy Spirit" (Romans 8:9, Php. 1:19) is GOD and the ONLY eternal "Soul" of God. You sir, are bibtarded and poorly studied on biblical verses, or "Trinity Doctrine" for that matter.
Nope... All three ARE God and All Three are ONE. God's Body, Spirit and Soul are SPECIAL... whereas ... we don't and can't Astro-Project on an INFINITE plane of existence... of multi-dimensional PERFECTION.
Right... Paul agrees... Romans 10:9 shows us this... and Romans 10:13 confirms it. I can't help it that your CULT teachings and the words of "Charles Taze Russel" are more sacred to you than HOLY WRIT and what it plainly says...
Actually ... JESUS is the NAME of JEHOVAH... JESUS is the NAME above ALL NAMES...
Php. 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
So... Unless you're retarded... you can see that Heaven, Earth and Sheol... BOW to JESUS! JESUS is the "Name above ALL NAMES". That means JESUS is HIGHER THAN JEHOVAH ... or JHVH... or YHWH... or YHVH ... or whatever your Transliterated garbage is in actual speech. The TETRAGRAMATON is SACRED... But... JHVH is a poor leap in the first place.
JESUS is the HIGHEST NAME! Do you care to explain why DADDY's "name" is "beneath" Juniors?
Um... No... this is what the "SatanTower" teaches that the "TriUnity" is expressing... and the Watch(Satan)Tower is so disgustingly full of LIES to BRAINWASH people like you... dumb and easily led astray by deception and promises of PRIDE and Exaltation.
I'm not "RELIGIOUS" in ANY sense... thus... you can call me SECULAR... and "NimRod"... I just said different... and I can bind it to Scripture so perfectly that you will be SCRIPTURE DENYING like all of you Head Cases... usually do.
This is your DADDY... if you maintain your coarse...
Job 41:34 He beholds every high thing;
He is king over all the children of pride.”
Oh... WOW... how magnanimous of you to share scripture and begin to infuse it with your K-MART Doctrine that is so MAN-MADE that it is corporately generated on more letterhead than any other RELIGION in existence.
You sir, have the Serial Killer of SOULS hand up your backside... moving your every movement and word to deny what Romans 10:13 plainly says...
You think yourself wise... but are more deceived than any but 1 that I have met here.
I am certain that you believe Satan will have the sins of mankind cast upon him at the close of all judgment...
PS... that means you do have "a god" as your "daddy".... so... I guess you're not completely "delusional.
You sir, are a Zombie! Jesus is the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...
Exodus 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
The Son of God... a.k.a. THE WORD / LOGOS / MEMRA ... The BODY / GLORY of God is what is ALWAYS manifested...
When you SEE the GLORY ... you have SEEN the FATHER..., but you have actually had The Father Reveled by THE SON...
Care to search John 1 to see how on point what I just said is? Probably not... you JW, Brain Washed, Bible Twisting, Vomit Spewing, Zombie!
Only 1 NAME SAVES! We have gone over this together in Acts and Romans...
You sir, have gone "full retard".
NWL
Active member
And this is meant to show what in regards to me saying that the trinity doctrine teaches that Jehovah is one?
I'm not going to understand your position unless you use your words.
Is this you implying that since there can only be one saviour according to Isaiah 43:11 with Jesus being a saviour in Luke 2:11 that Jesus must be the same saviour mentioned in Isaiah 43:10, thus making him the God of the said verse?
If so what do you do with Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) who were both called saviours (exactly the same Hebrew word used for saviour)? Are they also God or can there be more than one saviour? Let see if you can answer honestly.
Either God is one who is three persons, or there are three separate Gods who make up one God. I could quote countless of classic trinitarian sources that say what I'm saying, that the trinity is three persons who make ONE God and NOT three Gods who equal one God. I could also quote countless classical trinitarian sources that say that the One God is Jehovah. I don't get your issue with me "defining" what the trinity is especially when its not an incorrect definition.
Then you have three Gods and not one. Either God is one who is three persons, or God is three and three Gods. Again, the classical trinity doctrine teaches that there is ONE God who is three persons. 99% of trinitarians I speak with claim that God is one who is three persons. You are one of the first I've met to deny this, :up:
I do not deny that all things in heaven and on earth bow to the name of Jesus but you're forgetting one thing, to who's glory does it go to? The Father! If that it the case then Jesus himself and the authority he holds is not greater than the Fathers.
(Philippians 2:10, 11) "..so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.."
But wait, if everything in heaven and earth bows to Jesus then why does the glory go to the Father and NOT to Jesus? Hmmm. When the bible uses negative phrases like "only one", "no other", "all things" these things are limited to the context with which they're regarding. The bible at times defines this, most the time it doesn't since it goes without saying that a particular phrase isn't all encompassing. Right now you probably think I'm talking out my backside, so let me prove it to you.
We can see in Phil 2:10,11 that all things in heaven and earth should bow to Jesus. Now the reason why all things bow to Jesus is because God the Father placed Jesus above everything, subjecting all things under Jesus feet. (Matt 28:18) "Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth."
Now, it should go without saying that the one whom subjected all things under someones feet has more authority than the person who he has elevated. Matt 28:18 doesn't futher define that God is not beneath or on par with Jesus. However 1 Corinthians 15:27 does, "For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.."
As shown, since the Father subjected things to Jesus it goes without saying it doesn't include him, namely God, being subjected to Jesus too.
Likewise Phil 2:10,11 says God the Father gave Jesus a name above every name, therefore just like all things in Matt 28:18 doesn't mean that the God the Father was subject and under the authority of Jesus does Jesus name above every name outrank the name of Jehovah. Since, it should go without saying that the one who gave Jesus the name above every name has a greater name than that one.
You know I don't believe this stuff right?? These are your teachings whether you know it or not. Remember, deut 6:4 says Jehovah is one, this is literally what I said. Jesus does not = Jehovah, since Jehovah = the Trinity.
This really isn't hard to understand. If I said Jesus is the trinity, you would say no, he's part of the trinity, since the trinity = Father+Son+HS. There is only one trinity, you wouldn't deny this. The term trinity and Jehovah, to a trinitarian, are synonymous, thus Jesus cannot be Jehovah anymore than Jesus is the trinity, since three persons make the trinity. Deut 6:4 states Jehovah is ONE, a trinitarian believes Jehovah is one who is revealed as three separate persons. At present you, for reasons beyond me, are arguing against this.
Yeah I think you beat "daqq"... by far. :kookoo:
Job 41:34 He beholds every high thing;
He is king over all the children of pride.”
It's hilarious that you can't even defend your own beliefs, you have a loud bark my friend. All I've seen you do so far is claim a whole heap, probably using things you've googled, and when I refute it all you do is scoff and insult coincidentally leaving out any type of rebuttal.
NWL
Active member
:freak:
Since you have a display picture of children's Disney character and clearly have a hard time restraining your emotions, hence your childish name calling -which is hilarious if you ask me- I put your age no higher than 15? How close am I?
Out of interesting, where is your scriptural support that the trinity, namely, the Father, Son and HS are unitedly called Jesus?
Oh... I see... you mock Jesus Christ and Deny Him as what He really is, and you expect me to make you some cookies and serve you some milk?
How about this... last chance... How about I give you a personal scripture run of my own... and you "Exegete it"... If you can... I'll switch back to a kinder, gentler me.
If you can't or won't... I will make no false promises about it... I will become your worst theological nightmare and Titus 1:11 will be so prominent in everything I post towards you that you'll crawl away in shame, or look exactly like "wimp-lo" on this youtube video.
Spoiler
P.S. I forgot that most of you waco's condemn Disney too.
Exegete this and we will see if you are 1/1000th the level you pretend to be... and yes... I'm shamelessly stepping all over you and your lying tongue... get used to it.
Rv. 12:3-4 to Ezekiel 28:13-17, 2-5 to Isaiah 14:12-15,19 to Genesis 3:1-5, 14-15 to Psalms 89:37-45; Matthew 2:16-18
Rv. 12:5 to Genesis 49:8-12 to Isaiah 7:14-15 to Luke 1:46-55 to Luke 2:4-20
(John 13:33 - John 14:6 parallel with Matthew 26:31-35) to Matthew 27:50-53 to Luke 24:46 to (1 Peter 3:18-20 parallel with Philippians 1:19)
Zechariah 3:1-2 to Jude 1:9 to Deuteronomy 4:20 to Amos 4:11 to Acts 7:56 to Job 2:2-5 to James 2:13
........... Zechariah 3:3-5 to Leviticus 22:3 to Galatians 3:19-26 to John 16:8-11 to Deuteronomy 19:15-21 to Deuteronomy 17:6 to Philippians 2:5-11 to 1 Timothy 2:5-6 to 1 Timothy 3:4-7 to 1 Timothy 3:16 to 2 Timothy 1:8-10 to 1 John 4:6-9 to 1 John 5:7 to John 18:37 to John 19:10, 12 to Ephesians 4:8
Zechariah 3:6-7 to Psalms 2:2, 6-12
Zechariah 3:8 to John 15:1-8 to Hebrews 4:8-16
Zechariah 3:9 to 1 Peter 2:1-10 to Revelation 3:21 to Revelation 3:12 to Revelation 3:5 to Zechariah 3:3 to Revelation 2:17 to Revelation 2:25-29 to Revelation 5:6 to Revelation 12:7-12 to 1 Peter 5:8-9 to Hebrews 2:14 to Revelation 1:8
Zechariah 3:10; 6:9-15 to John 15:1
Zechariah 6:9-15 to Revelation 4:10-11 to Revelation 11:16-18 to Revelation 19:11-12, 21
Hebrews 4:8-9 to Matthew 11:25-30 to Matthew 12:7 to Hebrews 4:10 to Romans 4:4-5 to Hebrews 4:11 to Psalms 95:7-11 to Exodus 17:1-7 to Numbers 20:2-13
Hebrews 4:11 to Deuteronomy 12:9 to Hebrews 4:12-13 to Galatians 3:22 to John 5:39 to John 3:16-17 to Hebrews 4:14-16
It is and does... now close your foolish mouth... Never Wants Liberty (Gal. 5:4)
I totally used my words and you are "AFRAID" of them... I also bound them to scripture.
God is ONE that expresses Himself Body, Mind and Soul...
This is for you...
Why don't you stick this in your self-righteous pipe and light it up... Junior.
Introduction
There is a single Anti-Christ that will come one day, but we know that the Devil is the picture and leader of the Anti-Christ Spirit. There are only two leading "S(s)pirits" in this world. There is the Spirit of God and there is the spirit of Satan (Adversary to God)... because no man can serve two masters (Mt. 6:24).
"Subsistence" is the first place to start. The word Subsistence means... the action or fact of maintaining or supporting oneself at a minimum level. I would recommend we replace the word Subsistence with "Expression". "Expression" means... the process of making known one's thoughts or feelings.. and... the look on someone's face that conveys a particular emotion. This bolsters the fact that the Spirit (Father), Face of God (The Logos Son) and the Presence of God within us (Holy Spirit) is... not are... is... all God, our Monotheistic ONE.
The second thing I want to recommend is that we take a note from the Biblical response to Jesus words and His Deity. In (Mt. 28:19) we have a very Trinitarian baptism that identifies the Three that Testify (1 Jn. 5:7). But as early as Acts, we see the post Jesus Christ response as this… (Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:5). The apostles of our Lord and God, Jesus Christ weren’t “Doctrinally" afraid to Name the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT... "Jesus Christ". We see this again in (Galatians 4:6; Romans 8:9 and Philippians 1:19) in reference to the Holy Spirit. To call the Father Jesus and still acknowledge the Trinity is a giant theological leap! However, the REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, or book of REVELATION starts with JESUS CHRST speaking through the Apostle John, from the Island of Patmos. It has such high points as Revelation 4:2f where we only see ONE sitting in the throne and of-coarse the giant reveal that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega in Revelation 22:13.
I have gone to great lengths to express this and if you need more biblical evidence, I have so much evidence, that it is literally incontrovertible. I would even be willing to have an official debate over this matter moderated by the mods with you if you don’t believe me. I wouldn’t be utilizing any other reference than the good old 66. It is so full of support for my assertions, that I would feel guilty entering a spectated debate on the matter. It would make me look like a theological ace and I have absolute faith that the Bible itself would declare me the victor. To be precise, (John 5:39) is a death nail. If that isn’t enough, I am now theologically capable on explaining the connection of (Gn. 1:3, 26; John 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, 13, 14; 14:7f, 9; 1 John 1:1, 2; Gal. 4:6, Dt. 6:4) … and many other verses that are implicit on the matter in a way that is irrefutable, and still supportive of the “Trinity”.
Let us look at this which has gone ignored, but has been available for much time now.
Spoiler
This has been hard for me because I dislike pointing out Spiritual Death
I haven't even begun to express the myrid of scriptures and writeups I've been blessed to write up on the fact that saying Jesus Christ is saying the name of God. But this is where I have been headed. So let's get to the matter.
(1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:16)
1 John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
If you realize that Jesus Messiah (Christ) is the FULL name of God and the apostle Paul made a mult-dimensional statement about this that gives the equation to utter "church" unity and the understanding of the utter Monotheistic Unity of God in (1 Co. 1:13)
You will fully understand how demonic the Anti-Christ Spirit is that led me to generate this OP. I will omit the name of the person that posted this, but please tell me if you can see the absolute hate that is being generated towards our Lord (John 20:28), God (Is. 45:5) and Savior (Is. 43:11)... Jesus Christ (Messiah).
Name and link ommited to protect this OP said:
This was taken from here... LINK HERE
Oh... and [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] generated a fantastic response here... Link to Lon's Awesome Post
You're in WAYYYYY over your head @NWL
NWL
Active member
Where in the above do I mock Jesus!? And how on earth are you acting like I'm asking an arm and a leg from you because I for your scriptural reasons as to why you claim Jesus=Father/Son/HS???
One of the very first things you asked me was a question? Yet when I ask a question am asking the world from you. You have issues buddy, and that's not me trying to insult.
Hypocrite, so you imply I'm asking a lot from you because I ask you a single question doing so out of interest, and you go ahead and ask me to exegete over 80 verses and accounts and that's absolutely fine to you, even though you just had a go at me because I asked for one? :bang:
Are you threatening me Master Jedi? Actually I'm a big star wars fan, I'm just not that lame to have a sith as my dp.
I have no problem exegeting them, simply tell me your reasons for posting them(an explanation for each set of paragraph of scripture will do), and what you're understanding or claim is regarding them or what you're trying to prove or disprove by them. Please be specific to each paragraph you listed, I count 11 in total.
NWL
Active member
I will tolerate a little bit of name calling here and there and a few cheap jabs maybe, but you carry on the way you are and our discussions will stop. There is simply no need for such rudeness in a adult conversation, either fix up and pull yourself together or refrain from talking to me.
You did not use your words, you simply quoted scripture in reply to particular point I made. I can copy and paste the conversation if you like or you can stop your pointless lying. I suggest that the trinity teaches that Jehovah is one and you quoted three scriptures, Deuteronomy 6:4, Genesis 1:26 and 1 Thessalonians 5:23, you made no personal comments when doing so. Therefore I don't know how "you totally used words"???
So when I said you are unable to defend your own beliefs I wasn't wrong, I asked you numerous questions and raised numerous issues, your rebuttal and answer to those was to show me a link :Letsargu: A discussion works two ways, you talk I talk, you ask I answer, I ask you answer.
Why are showing me a link? Can't you defend what you believe to be true yourself instead of copy and pasting a post you made regarding a general topic of the anti-Christ? You expect a lot from me but give nothing in return... apart from your cheap insults.
Here are some points and questions you failed to address in my last post to you, you're under no obligation to answer. However a discussion, as already mentioned, generally involves listening, asking questions and answering questions. If you're incapable of any one of these I suggest you quit while you're ahead.
If there can be ONLY saviour how is it possible that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are referred to as saviour using exactly the Hebrew term as applied to God in Isaiah 43:11 that you mentioned? According to Judges 3:9,15 does scripture allow for their to be more than one Savior?
When God the Father subjected "all things" or gave "all authority" to Jesus, was God the Father himself included? Whether a yes or no please give an explanation, even if it's brief, so I can better understand your position.
If the classical trinitarian teaching is that Jehovah is one, who is three persons, and also that Jehovah is one according to Deut 6:4, why is it you claimed I'm telling lies when stating this? Am I incorrect, if so how?
Thanks for referring me to your thread.
Why am I not surprised that you again refer to someone else's writing and not produce your own exegesis regarding the scriptures I use along with my reasoning.
Says the person who can only copy and paste, use reasoning relevant to the discussion.
Laughable.
The only thing worth mentioning that I read in what you posted was in when comparing Isaiah 45:23 and Phil 2:10,11. You make the claim that since Isaiah 45:23 says "To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty" in regards to Jehovah and Phil 2:10,11 has "every knee" bending to Jesus, that Jesus must be the Jehovah of Isaiah 45:23.
What you fail to understand is the position Jesus holds in relation to worship and God the Father. We worship God the father THROUGH Jesus, "no one comes to the Father, except through me" (John 14:6), to deny Jesus is to deny the father since Jesus is the representative of the Father. Much like the Jews rejected God as King when rejecting Samuel as Judge over Israel (1 Samuel 8:7), by rejecting Jesus you reject the Father who sent Jesus.
As stated we worship the Father, not Jesus, by worshipping through Jesus. Thus we have Phil 2:10,11 that shows the Father Jehovah is the one who receive ultimate worship. We can clearly see Jesus words in John 14:6 being applied by every knee bending to Jesus, but that praise and glory doesn't go to Jesus, but rather through him and to the Father.
Since the Father is the one who ultimately receives the glory from the bending of the knee it is proper that knee in effect bend to Father, but through Jesus. Therefore what is said in Isaiah 45:23, if applicable, presents no issue, since, it simply qualifies the final outcome of glorification that goes to the Father Jehovah, leaving out the means by which it got there.
(Isaiah 64:8) "..But now, O Jehovah, you are our Father.."
(Isaiah 45:23) "..By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return: To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty.."
They show the unity of Christ and the Father and the working of Atonement. I simply post them as is... because this site allows for immediate follow through with the hover feature and the addition of RefTagger.
Any how... I'm confident that anyone reading this will see that you have rebutted yourself earlier.
Romans 10:9-13 was my clue that no amount of discussion with you will bring you away from your "false truth".
To be completely forth right...
YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO PROMOTE THE WATCHTOWER AND YOU HAVE PROVEN THAT YOU HAVE NO SCRIPTURAL INTEGRITY BEYOND WHAT THEY SHOVE DOWN YOUR THROAT.
I have come to the conclusion that I have posted on the post before this. And I leave you with this gem.
Copy and paste to come...
NWL
Active member
Assertion, after assertion, after assertion. You have no scriptural integrity beyond what you can assert Evil.Eye.
You asked me exegete 80 verses splitting them into 11 different paragraphs. I stated I was willing to do your unreasonable demand, all I asked for was for you to give me a line for each one of the 11 paragraphs, which I think is reasonable, and you can't even give me that! You can't even answer the plain and basic questions I pose to you, you act as If I didn't even ask you.
On one occasion when I asked you a question, you implied I was asking the world off you. When you asked me to exegete 80+ you threatened me with harassment if I failed to do so. You've told me, without provocation, to shut my mouth along with other unnecessary and unwarranted comments.
You haven't made a single point/claim, where I've answered, and even attempted to refute or give a counter argument as to what I said was false.
I think it will be plain to see for everyone who has rebutted who.
I know you probably wont answer this since you're the master at not being able to answer questions, but where exactly did I refute myself, please show me for everyone to see.
And yet I haven't made as single reference from the Watch Tower and Bible tract society but have simply been using scriptures in our discussions, so how this is the case I don't know.
Don't forget, you haven't been able to refute a single point I've made.
You again bring up our discussion of Romans 10:13. Did I not show you clearly enough Jesus cannot be Jehovah in the account since it speaks of Jehovah laying Jesus as the corner stone in Isaiah 28:16, paralleling it to what is said of Jesus in Romans 10:11. Thus showing Jesus can't be Jehovah who lays Jesus as the cornerstone.
Here's what I said again: Now, the first scripture I'll show is Isaiah 28:16, which reads "Therefore, this is what the Sovereign Jehovah says: "Look! I am placing a foundation stone in Jerusalem, a firm and tested stone. It is a precious cornerstone that is safe to build on. Whoever believes need never be shaken". As we can see Jehovah laid a foundation stone in Jerusalem, that foundation stone was Jesus as can be seen in Romans 10:10,11, "For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation. 11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed" (see also Romans 9:33).
So here we have Jehovah laying a foundation stone, namely Jesus, in Jerusalem. Now what's your position? That Jesus is Jehovah according to v13? If Jesus was Jehovah in this account then it makes no sense why Paul would quote a scripture that seperates the person of Jesus and Jehovah in v11. Paul in effect implied that Jesus was not Jehovah, since it was Jehovah who laid Jesus as a foundation, thus Jesus, being that foundation, wasn't Jehovah who laid that foduntaion stone.
I then went onto show that Romans 10 was in regards to Israel relation with the God of the OT and that since God, who seperate from Jesus in the account, was the subject in the majority of verses leading up to Romans 10:13, therfore it would be fitting for the quote in Romans 10:13 to apply to Jehovah. I also brought out the fact that nowhere in Romans 10:13 does it state v13 was in relation to Jesus and such a thought could at best be assumed.
So please tell me again, where exactly is my reasoning wrong in relation to Romans 10:13 and what I just said? :cigar:
NWL
Active member
You forgot to answer the questions I asked you. Remember you ask, I answer, as I have been doing, I ask you answer. Here they are again, you're not chickening out are you?
If there can be ONLY saviour how is it possible that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are referred to as saviour using exactly the Hebrew term as applied to God in Isaiah 43:11 that you mentioned? According to Judges 3:9,15 does scripture allow for their to be more than one Savior?
When God the Father subjected "all things" or gave "all authority" to Jesus, was God the Father himself included? Whether a yes or no please give an explanation, even if it's brief, so I can better understand your position.
If the classical trinitarian teaching is that Jehovah is one, who is three persons, and also that Jehovah is one according to Deut 6:4, why is it you claimed I'm telling lies when stating this? Am I incorrect, if so how?
Also you failed to mention anything in regards to what I said about Isaiah 45:23 and Phil 2:10,11. I can only take your silence as your inability to refute what I said since what I said makes sense.
:cigar: