Although this was not my orginal argument I have to disagree with you on that.
Hebrews does discredit Jesus is God, being part of a Trinity.
Hebrews does not discredit Jesus as being part of a Trinity. I'm not trying to defend so-called Trinity doctrine, I'm just being matter-of-fact about it. It's not about Trinity, it's about Jesus being the Son of God, which is our God, the same God that created all things in Genesis, the One God. I'll do my best to explain without being overly wordy.
Hebrews was written after Jesus ascension, it mentions in Hebrews 1:9 that Jesus HAS a God, God does not have a God. Jesus does, thus he cannot be the God whom is his God nor can he have a God since he is God.
Where is it written that "God does not have a God?" I heard you say that, but I haven't seen the scripture say that. On earth, we are told God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Sometimes a person has themselves as their own god. However, God is his own God. When people speak of Jesus, it invokes our memory of the gospels, of God manifest in the flesh, and in that context most certainly God is his God. Jesus did not deny God, and he was not godless,
Secondly, Hebrews 1:8 shows us what type of God Jesus is, which I will explain... Jesus must be understood as God in the same sense that that Israelite King was God, that being, not in the almighty sense, but in the secondary sense such as Psalms 45...
This same book of Hebrews says that Jesus obtains his right to rule by inheritance, that his name is superior to angels. I am only aware of two classes of spirit being in scripture: God, the creator, and his angels, the created. It is very specific that Jesus is no angel, and then it invokes "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." It is very specific that Jesus is not an angel, but that rather the created angels worship him. He was above the angels, but made lower than them that he might suffer death. Again, the only spirits I know of are God and his angels.
I do not deny what the scriptures actually saying regards to Melchizadek, I simply claim they have a symbolic meaning. Scripture also states that Jesus is a lamb, would it be correct to claim Jesus is a literal sheep or can writers and speakers use language in a symbolic sense.
When Jesus is called the Lamb, it is a reference to his sacrifice for our sins. We needn't look for further meaning. But when Paul speaks of Melchizadek what else could he mean, and why would he use such constant rephrasing unless that is what he really meant?
Hebrews 7:1-3 KJV
(1) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
(2) To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
(3)
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
One might reason that a priest can bless on behalf of God without being God. One might also reason that perhaps "King of Peace" might be a coincidence with the promised title of "Prince of Peace" in Isaiah 9:6, which calls Jesus "the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." But why would Paul specifically focus on "without father, without mother, without descent" and then further "
having neither beginning of days, nor end of life?"
That's pretty specific. Even if one's ancestry were unknown, or insignificant, you don't say that person is without beginning of days or end of life. Even further reinforcing this theme, Paul says that this Melchisadec that received tithes of Abraham abideth a priest continually. As Paul speaks it sounds as if he means that this Melchisadec did not die, does not die, and still is. These are the attributes that Paul associates with "
the Son of God."
Is the "Son of God" defined by having an unknown ancestry? Or by merely being very old and no one noticed when you slipped away, so you live in legend? Paul implies that it means something much stronger. Reading forward a few verses, this is further reinforced that he really did mean "endless life" when he spoke of Melchisadec.
Hebrews 7:15-17 KJV
(15) And it is yet far more evident: for that
after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
(16) Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment,
but after the power of an endless life.
(17) For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever
after the order of Melchisedec.
No, God did not appear before Abraham or any man for that matter, he sent his representatives, speaking through angels. When you receive a letter in the post do you tell your friends and family "a letter invited me to so and so wedding" or do you say "Mark invited me to his wedding". It is not foreign, even in the Bible, to show representatives of someone speaking as the sender themselves.
Please could you tell me so I can better understand your position, specifically, who were the three men in the account found in Genesis 18:2 ?
Specifically, God in the flesh and two angels, in the form of men.
We know they were of physical form because they had feet to be washed, and received bread, calf, butter, and milk prepared by Sarah. And where previously it said "they said unto him" it is specifically the LORD who chides Sarah for laughing at the promise. There is no need to insert "the LORD" at that point unless it was actually the LORD.
Advance to Genesis 18:16 and the men rise up and Abraham accompanies them as they look to Sodom. Now the LORD is speaking again to Abraham, and the conversation that follows is one on one, not the style that one would have with one and three mere representatives. There is no reason to think this is not a literal conversation, and if God meant to speak with him by a vision, why would you send representatives just to stand idly by? In the absence of any special mention that this was not a conversation with his visitors, we should not make unusual assumptions.
So when Abraham bargains with the LORD (and again,
it continues to say LORD, not "the men") now it tells us that the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham (verse 33). Those aren't the words you would use to describe your representatives leaving.
It says he was communing with Abraham.
So in chapter 19, we have two angels arriving at Sodom. Three men went out to look upon Sodom, the LORD speaks and bargains and communes
with Abraham, and the three men leave. But who arrives in Sodom? Two men, two angels we are told.
Those three men = the LORD plus two angels.
And for the sake of consistency it never says that Lot "communed with the LORD" or that the LORD was speaking to Lot. If indeed the LORD was not actually present talking to Abraham in the flesh earlier, but merely "the LORD" is said to speak by representatives, why would we not see that also in chapter 19 in the case of Lot? These are the same representatives as before, minus One. Emphasis on the capital designation in One, as Hear O Israel, the LORD your God is One LORD..
For what reasons do you see the titles father and son applied to Jesus and the Father as symbolic. The scriptures are clear in relation to Jesus that he was created as shown in Col 1:15. Other verses such as Rev 3:14 and Prov 8:22 make it clear who created him, namely God the Father.
(Colossians 1:15) "..He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.."
What translation are you using? Regardless, you omitted the relevant context. He is not the firstborn in relation to being created, but in being raised from the dead. And that same passage tells us that this "firstborn of every creature" is
the Creator Himself who created all things, by himself and for himself.
Colossians 1:15-18 KJV
(15) Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:
(17)
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead;that in all things he might have the preeminence.
It does not say he was created, quite the opposite. He was "before all things" it says, and "all things were created by him."
(Revelation 3:14) “..To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that [Jesus] the Amen says, [who is] the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.."
Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God, and as your reference to Colossians prepared us for already, He was the one doing the creating. This is also emphasized by the very specific titles of God that Jesus claims for himself, titles that specifically invoke "besides which there is no other God" and "that is my name" and "I shall not share my glory with another."
This title is used three times in Isaiah, as the unique title of God,
Isaiah 41:4 KJV
(4) Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning?
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isaiah 44:6 KJV(6) Thus saith
the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer
the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:11-13 KJV
(11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted?
and I will not give my glory unto another.
(12) Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called;
I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
(13)
Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
And four times in Revelation, as the rightful identification of Jesus.
Revelation 1:11 KJV
(11) Saying,
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not;
I am the first and the last:
(18)
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 2:8 KJV
(8) And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write;
These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
(13)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16)
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
That's seven times in total, sort of a nice significant number. Revelation owns the name just as much if not more than Isaiah. Yet never is that name used in an indecisive manner. Jesus was not ignorant of Isaiah when he appeared before John in this vision.
(Proverbs 8:22) "..Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.."
The topic of Proverbs 8 is personified wisdom. Not a man, god, or angel. It introduces her at the beginning of the chapter, it reinforces that personification in the beginning of the next chapter too. You'd be applying that passage outside its intended context to apply it to an actual person. But if you were to pick an actual person, why would you choose Jesus? His name is nowhere in that chapter, and it even identifies the subject as female. Jesus is always presented as male, and the created angels are called "Sons of God." Not daughters.
Proverbs 8:1-2 KJV
(1)
Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
(2)
She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Proverbs 9:1-2 KJV
(1)
Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
(2)
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.
