You need to read the surrounding verses for context and true understanding.
The Trinity
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You need to read the surrounding verses for context and true understanding.
Lon
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keypurr
Well-known member
John 17:3 disagrees with you Lon.
Is Jesus wrong?
Who can we trust then?
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keypurr
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Men over the years have distorted the word. We build our faith on the bits and pieces we have found. To ad to the problem is the differences in the languages involved in the translations we do have today. It is the content that we must seek to find.
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John 10:30 30 I and My Father are one.” And John 17:3 ... And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
So... um... er... lookey here... He just linked Himself to the Father in the verse that clearly supports Lon.
Next?
IDK ... I'm not sure I would wish Meshak on Hitler!?!
keypurr
Well-known member
keypurr
Well-known member
Lon
Well-known member
There are few Greek scholars that are Unitarian (if any). Take a Greek class. You are not too old.
Θεὸν καὶ ᾿Ιησοῦν Χριστόν
See the "v" endings? It equates the same. Only context would bust them apart, thus "God" and "Jesus Christ" can be seen as the same. Did you know that?
keypurr
Well-known member
Wish I could learn Greek Lon but I must admit at 81 a person has problems remembering things.
I can only rely on my many translations to guide my thoughts.
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Should we worship this "god"?
Keypurr, I already explained that passage to you. Are you ignoring what I said?
Let me explain it again.
In Koine Greek (and perhaps in Greek in general), there is no word "a", only the word "the." If you want to say "a god", you just say "god". However, there is a rule in Greek called the Granville Sharp Rule, and it follows as thus:
Hebrews was originally written in Greek. The only translation being done is from Greek to English, and that's pretty darn easy to do.
Tell me, KR, what is your evidence that A) Hebrews was translated, B) What was it translated from, and C) How is it sloppy?
Seems to me that it says the exact same thing, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."
Or did you miss the memo that "Elohim" (especially in that context) means "God."
Alright...
Then they're wrong and/or intentionally mistranslating it. The Hebrew reads (quite literally) "[Your throne] [O God] [(is) forever] [and ever]".
See the image I attached above for the actual Hebrew rtl text.
The Son's throne gets its authority from the divine Father, who is God. It's like saying "God is your throne forever."You'd probably be correct, except that "Elohim" is a noun, not an adjective like "divine" is, and the order of the Hebrew words does not match that translation.
No argument there, though you could also say that the source of His authority is Himself, since He is God.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. - Psalm 45:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm45:7&version=NKJV
If you're looking at JUST those two verses, and knew nothing about Hebrew or the rest of the Bible, they would seemingly contradict one another, because in verse six it calls the Son God, and in verse 7 it calls the Father God. How could that be if there is only ONE God?
Those two verses together only make sense if God is a plurality, having more than one person in the Godhead.
God the Son's God is His Father God.
The Son willingly submits Himself to the Father, in effect making His Father His God. This is why God says for us to honor our parents, because Jesus honors his Father, and God (the trinity) wants us to be like Him.
Again, I provided you with the Hebrew scripture. If you can show that the original texts say something different (in Hebrew, not English) than what I provided above, then you will have evidence that the scripture was mistranslated. But until then, I'm going to go with what I have provided, which says "your throne, O God, is forever and ever."
Oh, I almost forgot to discuss Hebrews 1:8... Back to Greek and English we go, because "To the Hebrews" (as far as I can tell) was originally written in Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic...
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. - Hebrews 1:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:8&version=NKJV
But de regarding pros the ho Son hyios he says, · ho “ Your sy throne thronos, O ho God theos , is for eis all ho time ai?n ho , · ho and kai the ho scepter rhabdos of ho absolute justice euthut?s is the scepter rhabdos of ho your sy kingdom basileia . - Hebrews 1:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:8&version=MOUNCE
"DE PROS HO HYOS HO SY THRONOS HO THEOS EIS HO AION HO"
"[But] [regarding] [the] [Son] he says, "[Your] [throne], [the God], [is for] [all] [time]."
Again, "ho" is the definite article "the" in Greek. There is no word for "a", such as "a God." You would only say "theos" for "a god," not "ho theos," which means "The God," and that refers to the one true God.
"SY THRONOS HO THEOS"
"Your Throne, the God"
Don't forget that the Magi worshipped Jesus as a toddler, well before Keypurr's supposed "indwelling."
keypurr
Well-known member
God say every kneen should bow to him as Lor5d, not God.
The was Peter w3rong here?
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
How about Paul and John:
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Joh 14:1 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Jesus Christ is Lord, not God. He is :a" god.
Where does it say that in scripture?
There is no God the Son in scripture.
You go to great lengths to stretch the words to fit your traditions my friend.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;
Rev 1:6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
No mention of another God named Jesus, but there is a Son named Jesus the Christ, anointed by God.
keypurr
Well-known member
He was the one that was foretold to them as Saviour of the mankind. King of the Jews. Christ was not in him at his birth as he had to grow in wisdom. The logos had all the wisdom and power.
No, it doesn't. It adds to what Lon is saying.
Jesus is never wrong.
God the Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
Keypurr, do you remember the Dead Sea Scrolls? If you were to compare the Hebrew texts we use today (such as in the photos of the app I used above for the Hebrew versions of the OT) to the Dead Sea Scrolls, You would find that other than a few minor differences, due mainly to updates in language, and grammar and spelling "differences," the texts are almost exactly the same. And Keypurr, the DSSs are REALLY OLD. It shows how little the the Scriptures have changed over the millennia, due to the careful copying of the scribes who copied them manually.
The pieces we've found match almost perfectly to what we have today. There's literally no differences that matter.
Keypurr, the OT was translated into Greek (which we know as the Septuagint) around 400 years before Christ was born. They were extremely careful in their translation, and since we have both the Septuagint AND most of the original Hebrew Old Testament, we can compare them to what we have today and see that our modern versions are, for all intents and purposes, the same.
That means that the English translation we have of the OT is AT MOST only 2 steps away from the original, but as far as I'm aware, was made using the original Hebrew instead of the Septuagint, which means, in terms of translation work, that things aren't going to be very different from the originals, the message remains the same.
The New Testament was originally written in Greek, and from Greek to Hebrew (such as what the MOUNCE shows) is AT MOST 1 step away from the original text, meaning that the english version of the NT is not going to differ, if at all, from the original Greek.
So Keypurr, to say that there's a problem because of the differences in language is not a very good argument, because the languages are not dead languages, and we understand them quite well, AND we have most of the originals, enough to know that what we use today is accurate in what it says.
See the paragraphs above.
You are not "one with the Father" in the same way that this verse is talking about. This verse is talking about Jesus literally being one and the same as God the Father, meaning that He is God.
Not like Jesus is one with the Father.
Keypurr, I know very little Greek. But I know how to look things up, so that I can understand what's being said. I also use resources like MOUNCE Reverse Interlinear NT to have a side-by-side comparison of what the Greek says in English.
So why not rely on what people have already translated, and from the original texts, no less?
Keypurr, only GOD HIMSELF is worthy of worship. What do you not get about that? NO ONE ELSE is worthy of worship. So why was Jesus, whom you say was ONLY HUMAN, worshipped as if he were God?
keypurr
Well-known member
JR for the record Hebrews was written by Paul while in was in a Rome prison in Aramaic. Later it was translated to the Greek.
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keypurr
Well-known member
Kings were worshipped, Moses was worshipped.
But I do agree that only the Father is to be worshipped as God.
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