The Trinity

[SimpleMan77]

You're simply arguing with scripture. All things were made by him - the Word who became flesh. Of course the pronouns are referring to Him. The it became a Him, no longer referred to as an it.

The verb GINOMAI was used in Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done (GINOMAI) unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

The power of creation in His word.




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Acts 2:22-24
22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power

Peter makes it clear ...Jesus is a man....and God DID IT ALL[/QUOTE]

He is absolutely a man. He, in all things, was made like His brethren. Doesn't take away from the fact that He was/is God. If he didn't actually become a man he wouldn't truly know how we feel experientially.

The sons name is called the Everlasting Father. God said "they shall look on me whom they pierced". God purchased the church with His own blood. Jesus in Revelation 1:8 said "I am the Almighty", and when John turned to look, it was Jesus. John never saw anyone on the throne but Jesus - one was on the throne.


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[Lilstu]

Acts 2:22-24
22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power

Peter makes it clear ...Jesus is a man....and God DID IT ALL

He is absolutely a man. He, in all things, was made like His brethren. Doesn't take away from the fact that He was/is God. If he didn't actually become a man he wouldn't truly know how we feel experientially.

The sons name is called the Everlasting Father. God said "they shall look on me whom they pierced". God purchased the church with His own blood. Jesus in Revelation 1:8 said "I am the Almighty", and when John turned to look, it was Jesus. John never saw anyone on the throne but Jesus - one was on the throne.


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Jesus brethren were not Gods and they could not turn water to wine.
Of course....everything Jesus did or said was from the Father.
You might think of Jesus as God's "mouthpiece"...his spokesman...God's WORD.
John 17:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

So as we can see, Jesus was GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracles, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracles. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

John 7:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 8:26New American Standard Bible (NASB)
I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”

John 14:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.

 

[SimpleMan77]

The Trinity

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[SimpleMan77]

[MENTION=18573]Lilstu[/MENTION] As a man, Jesus could have experiences that were completely human. When He said "I thirst", that was a completely human experience. When he was tempted of the devil, that was a completely human experience, because God cannot be tempted with sin.

However, Jesus had dual identities, and many of His attributes and experiences were completely divine. When He said "before Abraham was, I am", that was a completely divine statement.
When he not only accepted Thomas's statement about Him being Lord and God, but He also pronounced a blessing on all those who wouldn't see, but would believe the same thing, that was a completely divine experience.
When Paul took the statement that YHWH had made in the OT about every knee bowing to Himself, and said that scripture would be fulfilled when all knees bowed to Jesus, that was a confirmation of his divinity.
When Paul said that he prayed to Jesus, and said that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of Deity in bodily form, he was confirming that Jesus is God.

I could go on, and on, and on. John says that Isaiah saw Jesus when Isaiah said that he had saw YHWH, etc, etc.



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[Lilstu]

You're simply arguing with scripture. All things were made by him - the Word who became flesh. Of course the pronouns are referring to Him. The it became a Him, no longer referred to as an it.

The verb GINOMAI was used in Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done (GINOMAI) unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

The power of creation in His word.




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Acts 2:22-24
22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power

Peter makes it clear ...Jesus is a man....and God DID IT ALL[/QUOTE]

Use the Edit function please...you are making assertions incorrectly for my name.

 

[Lilstu]

[MENTION=18573]Lilstu[/MENTION] As a man, Jesus could have experiences that were completely human. When He said "I thirst", that was a completely human experience. When he was tempted of the devil, that was a completely human experience, because God cannot be tempted with sin.

However, Jesus had dual identities, and many of His attributes and experiences were completely divine. When He said "before Abraham was, I am", that was a completely divine statement.
When he not only accepted Thomas's statement about Him being Lord and God, but He also pronounced a blessing on all those who wouldn't see, but would believe the same thing, that was a completely divine experience.
When Paul took the statement that YHWH had made in the OT about every knee bowing to Himself, and said that scripture would be fulfilled when all knees bowed to Jesus, that was a confirmation of his divinity.
When Paul said that he prayed to Jesus, and said that in Jesus dwells all the fullness of Deity in bodily form, he was confirming that Jesus is God.

I could go on, and on, and on. John says that Isaiah saw Jesus when Isaiah said that he had saw YHWH, etc, etc.



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I am...ego eimi ....is sometimes translated as "I am he" or "I am the one"

John 9:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the one." [ego eimi] [The man born blind from birth]

So what would John 8:58 look like if "ego eimi" were translated as "I am the one." just as it is at John 9:9?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am the one.
Then Jesus might be saying that he was the Messiah who God chose to create even before Jesus was born, and in fact even before Abraham was born.

John 4:25-26 (New American Standard Bible)
25The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." [am He is ego eimi]

So Jesus is using ego eimi to declare his Messiahship in John 4:26 just as he is in John 8:58

 

[SimpleMan77]

I am...ego eimi ....is sometimes translated as "I am he" or "I am the one"

John 9:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the one." [ego eimi] [The man born blind from birth]

So what would John 8:58 look like if "ego eimi" were translated as "I am the one." just as it is at John 9:9?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am the one.
Then Jesus might be saying that he was the Messiah who God chose to create even before Jesus was born, and in fact even before Abraham was born.

John 4:25-26 (New American Standard Bible)
25The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." [am He is ego eimi]

So Jesus is using ego eimi to declare his Messiahship in John 4:26 just as he is in John 8:58

You are totally ignoring the context of the verse.
The Jews had just asked Him how that he could have been around when Abraham was alive, and that is how He answered them.
They heard Him loud and clear, and tried to kill Him for His answer. They knew that he was claiming to be God


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[Rivers]

So Jesus is using ego eimi to declare his Messiahship in John 4:26 just as he is in John 8:58

I agree. Moreover, John 8:58 is about the coming (resurrection) of Abraham, and not the preexistence or divinity of Jesus.

Not only should EGW EIMI ("I am") be taken in its normal sense of simply being an expression of present self-identity, but the verb GENESQAI ("becomes") always has future implications when it is used in the 4th Gospel. Thus, Jesus was telling the Jews that something was yet to become of Abraham (who was dead at the time, John 8:52-53) because of who he was at the time they were speaking with him.

 

[Rivers]

You are totally ignoring the context of the verse.
The Jews had just asked Him how that he could have been around when Abraham was alive, and that is how He answered them.
They heard Him loud and clear, and tried to kill Him for His answer. They knew that he was claiming to be God


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What you're missing in the context is that Jesus did not claim to have ever "seen" Abraham in John 8:56. Thus, the question the unbelieving Jews asked in response was misinformed. What Jesus stated about Abraham in John 8:58 follows from what Jesus actually meant in John 8:56.

Thus, Jesus was saying "became Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he will see it, because I am here"

 

[SimpleMan77]

What you're missing in the context is that Jesus did not claim to have ever "seen" Abraham in John 8:56. Thus, the question the unbelieving Jews asked in response was misinformed. What Jesus stated about Abraham in John 8:58 follows from what Jesus actually meant in John 8:56.

Thus, Jesus was saying "became Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he will see it, because I am here"

Btw, this verse is only one of many that I mentioned, and all of them prove Jesus is God.

I agree that Jesus didn't start out in this passage the way it ended up. When he said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", he was not saying "Abraham rejoiced to see me".

However, they asked him a pointed and clear question: "you're not yet 50 - have you seen Abraham?" That's when Jesus, to answer that specific question, says "before Abraham was I am".

It may be a matter of debate whether or not Jesus purposely use language that was similar to the language God used to Moses, but what is not up for debate is that Jesus was claiming to exist before his birth in Bethlehem. He is claiming a conscious existence before Abraham.

From Everlasting to Everlasting You are God!!


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[Rivers]

I agree that Jesus didn't start out in this passage the way it ended up. When he said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", he was not saying "Abraham rejoiced to see me".

However, they asked him a pointed and clear question: "you're not yet 50 - have you seen Abraham?" That's when Jesus, to answer that specific question, says "before Abraham was I am".

I don't think it follows that just because the Jews asked Jesus a particular question in John 8:57, that his answer has to follow from their misunderstanding of what he said in John 8:56.

For example, when Nicodemus asked the misinformed question about being "born again" in John 3:4, the answer Jesus gave in John 3:5 actually elaborated on his own statement in John 3:3 (and did not follow from the question asked by Nicodemus in unbelief).

A common mistake that interpreters make in John 8:58 is the assumption that Jesus was directly answering the misinformed question in John 8:57. Thus, many miscontrue John 8:58 to be about the preexistence of Jesus before the birth of Abraham instead of recognizing that Jesus was talking about his own presence in their day before the coming (resurrection) of Abraham.

 

[SimpleMan77]

I don't think it follows that just because the Jews asked Jesus a particular question in John 8:57, that his answer has to follow from their misunderstanding of what he said in John 8:56.

For example, when Nicodemus asked the misinformed question about being "born again" in John 3:4, the answer Jesus gave in John 3:5 actually elaborated on his own statement in John 3:3 (and did not follow from the question asked by Nicodemus in unbelief).

A common mistake that interpreters make in John 8:58 is the assumption that Jesus was directly answering the misinformed question in John 8:57. Thus, many miscontrue John 8:58 to be about the preexistence of Jesus before the birth of Abraham instead of recognizing that Jesus was talking about his own presence in their day before the coming (resurrection) of Abraham.

Like I said earlier, God is very careful in the Bible to reinforce vinyl concepts at least two or three times. If this was the only place that claimed that Jesus existed before Bethlehem, we may call it into question. Here are some more.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And the writer of Hebrews said this verse was speaking of Jesus:
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:



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[Rivers]

Like I said earlier, God is very careful in the Bible to reinforce vinyl concepts at least two or three times. If this was the only place that claimed that Jesus existed before Bethlehem, we may call it into question. Here are some more.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And the writer of Hebrews said this verse was speaking of Jesus:
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

I agree, but don't think these three passage meant anything about the preexistence or divinity of Jesus.

For example, my understanding of Hebrews 1:10 is that "Lord" refers to God the Father and "the works of His hands" that were accomplished when He established the Kingdom of Israel. The writer of Hebrews himself indicated that "the work of Your hands" referred to what God the Father did, and not what Jesus did (see Hebrews 2:7).

 

[SimpleMan77]

I agree, but don't think these three passage meant anything about the preexistence or divinity of Jesus.

For example, my understanding of Hebrews 1:10 is that "Lord" refers to God the Father and "the works of His hands" that were accomplished when He established the Kingdom of Israel. The writer of Hebrews himself indicated that "the work of Your hands" referred to what God the Father did, and not what Jesus did (see Hebrews 2:7).

I'll agree to disagree.

I think you should be concerned if you find yourself having to get creative in explaining away verse after verse.


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[Rivers]

I'll agree to disagree.

I think you should be concerned if you find yourself having to get creative in explaining away verse after verse.

There's nothing "creative" about recognizing that writer of Hebrews himself said that "the work of Your hands" in Hebrews 1:10 referred to what God the Father did (see Hebrews 2:7). Jesus was "appointed over" what God the Father established.

Part of doing sound biblical exegesis is allowing a biblical writer to define the way he is using his own language. Isolating Hebrews 1:10 and ignoring how it was interpreted in Hebrews 2:7 is not a good approach.

 

[SimpleMan77]

There's nothing "creative" about recognizing that writer of Hebrews himself said that "the work of Your hands" in Hebrews 1:10 referred to what God the Father did (see Hebrews 2:7). Jesus was "appointed over" what God the Father established.

Part of doing sound biblical exegesis is allowing a biblical writer to define the way he is using his own language. Isolating Hebrews 1:10 and ignoring how it was interpreted in Hebrews 2:7 is not a good approach.

Hebrews 1:8-12
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

All of this is what God says to the Son.


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[Rivers]

Hebrews 1:8-12
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

All of this is what God says to the Son.

Yes, this is what God said "about the son" who is the one who inherited "the throne of God" (Hebrews 1:8) and was "anointed by God" (Hebrews 1:9) and "appointed over the works of Your (God's) hands" (Hebrews 1:10; Hebrews 2:7).

The context of Hebrews 1-2 is about the human Jesus being "appointed heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2) and "sitting down at the right hand of God" (Hebrews 1:4). The writer later indicated that the "throne of God" refers to the "right hand of God" (Hebrews 12:2). Thus, "God" in Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to the son.

 

[SimpleMan77]

Yes, this is what God said "about the son" who is the one who inherited "the throne of God" (Hebrews 1:8) and was "anointed by God" (Hebrews 1:9) and "appointed over the works of Your (God's) hands" (Hebrews 1:10; Hebrews 2:7).

The context of Hebrews 1-2 is about the human Jesus being "appointed heir of all things" (Hebrews 1:2) and "sitting down at the right hand of God" (Hebrews 1:4). The writer later indicated that the "throne of God" refers to the "right hand of God" (Hebrews 12:2). Thus, "God" in Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to the son.

If was writing an article about our conversation, and wrote the following:

But unto Rivers I said "your car, kind sir/ma'am (as the case may be), is really nice". There is no doubt that the "kind sir/ma'am" is who I am addressing.

"Oh God" is who is being addressed, and the writer of Hebrews is plainly saying that passage was addressed to the Son.


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[Rivers]

If was writing an article about our conversation, and wrote the following:

But unto Rivers I said "your car, kind sir/ma'am (as the case may be), is really nice". There is no doubt that the "kind sir/ma'am" is who I am addressing.

"Oh God" is who is being addressed, and the writer of Hebrews is plainly saying that passage was addressed to the Son.


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Your illustration doesn't work because the writer of Hebrews was not speaking our language (and was quoting something from a different language).

We have to interpret the langauge in Hebrews 1:8-12 according to the way the ancient writer used it himself. That is why I cited the other references throughout the book that show what he meant.

 

[Lilstu]

If you've been around sheep, you know that if one is a lamb, one doesn't sit on a throne. Would the sitting lamb have its front legs on the seat, on the arm rests, or in the air?

The Greek word actually means "in the middle, in the midst". The lamb was in the middle of the throne.


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Revelation 5:6-7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

The Lamb [Jesus] is not sitting on the Throne. He is standing.
Then he takes the scroll from God who is sitting on the Throne.