ECT The Sovereignty of God

[Nang]

(answering Nangs Comments to John W.) I would say if your Church does not practice infant baptism then it hardly deserves to be classified as Reformed.

Now you are going to insert yourself into my private worship life? What do you know about whether I believe in infant baptism or not?

You are just trolling to get responses from me, that do not accord with the purpose of the OP. Keep doing it, and you will find yourself under report for causing disturbance.

 

[Nang]

God cannot use His power to MAKE man holy.

It is a mistake to ever say "God cannot" do something. God can do anything He wills to do.

 

[Cross Reference]

It is a mistake to ever say "God cannot" do something. God can do anything He wills to do.

So why did He shield Moses from looking upon Him per Ex 33:20-23?

 

[Shasta]

Calvin practiced infant baptism.

 

[Nang]

Calvin practiced infant baptism.

So what?

Do I? Do you know?

If I do, do you know why?

If I don't, do you know why not?

You have been reported for disrupting a thread of its subject matter.

 

[Shasta]

None of this refutes the way I interpreted the scripture in my last post. My conclusions were based on exegetical analysis of the verse not on broad opinions about the issues. The scripture I quoted reveals that though God has the authority to bring the nations under subjection to His will He has chosen, for the time being, at least, to forbear.

He will take active control over the nations only when the seventh trumpet sounds and the voices from heaven proclaim:

“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” (Revelation 11:15)

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15:25)

Until then, the nations are ruled by men, many of whom serve the Wicked One. God reigns in His kingdom but He has not yet put all His enemies under His feet.

When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9).

There is a difference between what God can do or WILL do in the future and what He chooses to do now. Though He has all authority He will not exercise that authority until Christ returns which is why, in the present, we "do not see everything subject to Him" Calvin might say God is already in complete control of the governments of the earth. These scriptures deny this idea.

But we need not consult arcane theological books to see that man is not in obedience to God's will. The writer of Hebrews says, "we do not SEE everything under His feet." The world's rebellion against God is something anyone can SEE. However, going by what you have said so far, if God does not actively control everything then He is not definition "sovereign" but is "limited." Does the fact that He has not taken control of the nations make Him "limited?" Does God not have the right to refrain from controlling people until the cup of wrath is full? It is evident that God has generally chosen not to restrain the acts of mankind even though they are contrary to His will. As the sovereign Lord He has the right to make such decisions.

 

[Cross Reference]

Lets not confuse God's plan, set in Himself, which necessitates man's will being in union with it which necessitates his "willful" submission to it. For that reasoning to be correctly understood, one need only to read all of John 17 written to His disciples. . . all of them. Man's will will determine man's sucessful participation in it. Hence, we see the scarcely saved, elect, and very elect mentioned in the NT and the purpose for the confessing Christian individuals to overcome the law of there flesh. cf Rom.7.

 

[Nang]

None of this refutes the way I interpreted the scripture in my last post. My conclusions were based on exegetical analysis of the verse not on broad opinions about the issues. The scripture I quoted reveals that though God has the authority to bring the nations under subjection to His will He has chosen, for the time being, at least, to forbear.

He will take active control over the nations only when the seventh trumpet sounds and the voices from heaven proclaim:

“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” (Revelation 11:15)

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15:25)

Until then, the nations are ruled by men, many of whom serve the Wicked One. God reigns in His kingdom but He has not yet put all His enemies under His feet.

When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (Hebrews 2:9).

There is a difference between what God can do or WILL do in the future and what He chooses to do now. Though He has all authority He will not exercise that authority until Christ returns which is why, in the present, we "do not see everything subject to Him" Calvin might say God is already in complete control of the governments of the earth. These scriptures deny this idea.

But we need not consult arcane theological books to see that man is not in obedience to God's will. The writer of Hebrews says, "we do not SEE everything under His feet." The world's rebellion against God is something anyone can SEE. However, going by what you have said so far, if God does not actively control everything then He is not definition "sovereign" but is "limited." Does the fact that He has not taken control of the nations make Him "limited?" Does God not have the right to refrain from controlling people until the cup of wrath is full? It is evident that God has generally chosen not to restrain the acts of mankind even though they are contrary to His will. As the sovereign Lord He has the right to make such decisions.

IMO, the above reveals Deistic thought; theorizing that God created and then just lets things fly!

A Deist is not a Theist.

Theists shun relativism and instead acknowledge absolutes.

 

[Shasta]

I do not believe God is uninvolved in the affairs of men - which is what a Deist would say. I see answers to prayer all the time. On the other hand, I do not believe the scriptures teach that God wants to directly control everything. It does not logically follow that just because person does not believe one extreme he must believe necessarily the opposite extreme. The truth of every matter is found by examining all sides of an issue in the whole of scripture.

For instance, sometimes God is responsible for hardening men's hearts in order to bring about judgement or some other strategic purpose in His plan. However, we cannot therefore conclude God ALWAYS hardens men's hearts for the Bible sometimes says that a person hardened their own hearts.

 

[Nang]

I do not believe the scriptures teach that God wants to directly control everything.

I know. You do not believe that God is actively and absolutely sovereign over all He has created.

For instance, sometimes God is responsible for hardening men's hearts in order to bring about judgement or some other strategic purpose in His plan. However, we cannot therefore conclude God ALWAYS hardens men's hearts for the Bible sometimes says that a person hardened their own hearts.

The ONLY reason a person hardens their own hearts, is because God has not seen fit to change their hearts to love Him.

Man, by nature, does not love God, cannot love God, does not want to love God.

The human heart was hardened due to Adam's original sin, and made subject to Godly judgement, and the only remedy or rescue from hellfire, is God's grac . . . if He chooses to give a sinner a new heart to love and believe in Him.

Pharoah's heart was hard from birth and God did not choose to spiritually change it.

That is the teaching of Romans 9:15-22

 

[Clete]

His Sovereignty and sole ruling authority is incommunicable.

Says who? Calvin?

If you have been delegated any authority, it can only be representative.

Says who?

Rule without total control, is not an absolute at all, so you do not really believe in absolute sovereignty.

Just to be clear . . .

You don't get to define terms at will, Nang!

Calvinists really do believe that their definitions of common English words is the only correct definition of the word!

It's stupidity!

If you were honest, instead of insisting on a modified definition of a common English word that is never used the way you use it in any other context other than Calvinist doctrine, you'd simply acknowledge that God is not only sovereign (the highest authority) but He is also in total meticulous control of ever event that occurs. You could even invent our own word for it that has that specific meaning if you wanted to.

But you don't and there's a reason you don't! It's because no one would believe it! Or at the very least, far fewer people would believe it than get tricked into giving it lip service now. It seems like all you Calvinists are really interested in is lip service. You think that calling God soveriegn gives one credit for believing he's controls everything even if you don't and similarly, you think that because you call God just, it gives you credit for believing it even though your doctrine of soveriegnty negates it.

It's the most intellectually twisted in on itself jumble of mental excrement I've ever come across. What, oh what are you going to do when God is standing there telling you that your doctrinal definition of sovereignty was blasphemy?


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

You don't get to define terms at will, Nang!

Holy Scripture reveals that God is the ultimate authority over all He has created. The purpose of my OP is not to merely define terms, but to glorify the authority and rule of God Almighty.

For some reason, you are bothered by this . . .

You think that calling God soveriegn gives one credit for believing he's controls everything even if you don' and similarly, you think that because you call God just, it gives you credit for believing it even though your doctrine of soveriegnty negates it.

The biblical doctrine of the absolute Sovereignty of God does not negate that God is Just.

It's the most intellectually twisted in on itself jumble of mental excrement I've ever come across.

You are the one who is doing the intellectual twisting. I guess because you do not like having to admit you are one of those who limits the sovereign powers of God Almighty.

What, oh what are you going to do when God is standing there telling you that your doctrinal definition of sovereignty was blasphemy?

I do not know how declaring God as being absolutely sovereign over heaven and earth could possible be blasphemous, for such is biblical Truth.

Denial of the absolute Sovereignty of God and attempts to limit His authoritative rule over all persons and things, is blasphemous, IMO.

 

[Clete]

Holy Scripture reveals that God is the ultimate authority over all He has created. The purpose of my OP is not to merely define terms, but to glorify the authority and rule of God Almighty.

For some reason, you are bothered by this . . .

You're lying.

The biblical doctrine of the absolute Sovereignty of God does not negate that God is Just.

No, but the Calvinist doctrine of absolute control does.

You are the one who is doing the intellectual twisting. I guess because you do not like being told you are one of those who limits the sovereign powers of God Almighty.

You're lying again.

I do not know how declaring God as being absolutely sovereign over heaven and earth could possible be blasphemous, for such is biblical Truth.

Of course, you do! You know as well as anyone that your words are loaded with meaning that, unless stated explicitly, goes undetected by those who are unfamiliar with Calvinism's erroneous equivocations.

This is why I started in this thread by telling you to define terms, which you will never do honestly.

Denial of the absolute Sovereignty of God and attempts to limit His authoritative rule over all persons and things, is blasphemous, IMO.

NO ONE GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS, NANG!

This is not quilting class where we're discussing which stitch pattern best compliments what fabric prints.

You believe that God is arbitrary and that every rape, murder and child molestation happens because God decreed that it would so happen and that it cannot have been avoided under any circumstances whatsoever. You believe that those who are saved are so, not because they repent, but because God chose them ARBITRARILY before any of them existed.

You believe this for one reason and one reason only. It isn't because of some feigned allegiance to you god's "sovereignty" it's because if you believed otherwise, the conclusion that God must change in some fashion is logically inescapable and that, in your mind, would smash your god into dust. It is the absolute immutability of your god that directs every theological path you take and you're too stupid to even see it or too scared to admit it if you do.

You disgust me like no one I've ever known.

OH LORD PLEASE let me decide this woman's eternal punishment! I do, however, defer to Your greater wisdom.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

You're lying.


No, but the Calvinist doctrine of absolute control does.


You're lying again.


Of course, you do! You know as well as anyone that your words are loaded with meaning that, unless stated explicitly, goes undetected by those who are unfamiliar with Calvinism's erroneous equivocations.

This is why I started in this thread by telling you to define terms, which you will never do honestly.


NO ONE GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS, NANG!

This is not quilting class where we're discussing which stitch pattern best compliments what fabric patterns.

You believe that God is arbitrary and that every rape, murder and child molestation that happens because God decreed that it would so happen and that it cannot have been avoided under any circumstances whatsoever. You believe that those who are saved are so, not because they repent, but because God chose them ARBITRARILY before any of them existed.

You believe this for one reason and one reason only. It isn't because of some feigned allegiance to you god's "sovereignty" it's because if you believed otherwise, the conclusion that God must change in some fashion is logically inescapable and that, in your mind, would break your god into dust. It is the absolute immutability of your god that directs every theological path you take and you're too stupid to even see it or too scared to admit it if you do.

You disgust me like no one I've ever known.
OH LORD PLEASE let me decide this woman's punishment in Hell!

Resting in Him,
Clete

You deny the Sovereignty of God and His immutability, while blaming the wickedness of men upon Him, all while calling me a liar and condemning me to hell.

Sorry Clete, but you are showing your true colors, and they are ugly. No one who professes the name of Jesus Christ should ever manifest such a heart full of hate, as you repeatedly do. :nono:

 

[Clete]

You deny the Sovereignty of God and His immutability, while blaming the wickedness of men upon Him, all while calling me a liar and condemning me to hell.

Sorry Clete, but you are showing your true colors, and they are ugly. No one who professes the name of Jesus Christ should ever manifest such a heart full of hate, as you repeatedly do. :nono:

Psalms 139:Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men.
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.

 

[Nang]

Psalms 139:Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
Depart from me, therefore, you bloodthirsty men.
20 For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21 Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.

This is an imprecatory prayer of David, in the midst of temporal and physical battle.

Is this a better prayer model for a Christian, than the intercessory prayers petitioning eternal grace, exampled by Jesus Christ, and offered in faith in His Spirit and Name?

 

[Cross Reference]

This is an imprecatory prayer of David, in the midst of temporal and physical battle.

Is this a better prayer model for a Christian, than the intercessory prayers petitioning eternal grace, exampled by Jesus Christ, and offered in faith in His Spirit and Name?

You presume it was imprecatory. Why? Be honest with your reason and discover your error.

 

[Clete]

This is an imprecatory prayer of David, in the midst of temporal and physical battle.

Is this a better prayer model for a Christian, than the intercessory prayers petitioning eternal grace, exampled by Jesus Christ, and offered in faith in His Spirit and Name?

You really have no idea what the bible is even about, do you?

How do you get any fulfillment from or benefit in any way from the shallow platitudes and cliché ridden nonsense that no one actually believes?

You believe in a god that is so "transcendent" as to be impossible to believe in, never mind have a relationship with! You go to church to hear a bunch of excessively 'nice', saccharine sweet platitudes that are designed to make you feel good but that have no relationship with reality nor with the lessons of history taught throughout the pages of the bible that you claim to base you faith on. You go to church to get your spiritual belly rubbed, never being challenged to think about anything. What a total waste of your life!

Want to hear from Jesus?

Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.

Luke 20:17 Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone’?

18 Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

You really have no idea what the bible is even about, do you?

I know that denial of the absolute Sovereignty (authority and rule) of God, is denial of His reign over all things created.


Want to hear from Jesus, Clete?

Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.

To deny absolute Sovereignty, is to oppose God's reign over any and all . . .

Your argument brings this judgement upon YOU, for you have so opposed His reign over YOU.

 

[Clete]

I know that denial of the absolute Sovereignty (authority and rule) of God, is denial of His reign over all things created.


Want to hear from Jesus, Clete?

Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.

To deny absolute Sovereignty, is to oppose God's reign over any and all . . .

Your argument brings this judgement upon YOU, for you have so opposed His reign over YOU.

If your religion is true, everything I say, do or believe was unalterably predestined before I ever existed and is currently being "sovereignly" controled by your control freak of a god! There's nothing I can do about it unless that same control freak of a god makes me do it!

So why should I care? It isn't a "judgment" anyway! It's just the way things are and the only way things can be. I am, according to your relgion, exactly who your god created me to be and I couldn't be otherwise.

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​

Resting in Him,
Clete