ECT The Sovereignty of God

[Nang]

The doctrine of the Sovereignty of God is the core belief of the Reformed Faith.

However, many professing Christians also believe in the Sovereignty of God, while disagreeing with Reformers overall doctrines.

This boils down to Reformers believing Gods Sovereignty is absolute, while other faiths believe the sovereignty of God is limited. There are various ideas about these limits; most centering around the free will of man.

So I will begin this discussion by sharing a few verses from Holy Scripture to back up my Reformed view of Absolute Sovereignty of God:

I Chronicles 29:10-12
Job 12:6-10
Psalm 115:3
Psalm 135:6
Isaiah 46:9-11
Isaiah 55:11
Ephesians 1:11
Romans 9:19-21

I am sure there are more; especially passages that refer to God as being Creator, so please share any that you have that are favorites.

This invitation goes out to God's Truth who has expressed willingness to discuss her and my agreement on this truth, but any others who rejoice in the Sovereignty of God are welcome to bring forth Scripture that praises God as Lord of lords, and King of kings. I Timothy 6:15, Revelation 17:14

Nang

 

[Shasta]

God's omnipotence is affirmed in scripture. Your definition of "sovereignty" which seems to be God's control of every variable in creation is not. Making God's omnipotence equivalent to your doctrinal formulation confuses the issue and actually introduces the pagan idea of predeterminism into the text where it did not exist before. My point is you cannot use scriptures about God's power (His being King of King and Lord of Lords) to prove your doctrine of predeterminism because the two ideas are not the same.

The Lord COULD HAVE made man an automaton and pre-programmed all of his choices. However that leads to all sorts of nonsense like God being the author of evil and God making damnation certain and unavoidable by refusing to grant men "saving grace." So, although God had the POWER to create us without volition it was not His (sovereign) will. He wanted a people who had freely chosen to love and serve Him. Of course, the Holy Spirit's influence is required but it is the influence of persuasion. He does not involuntarily convert anyone. As the scriptures testify the Holy Spirit's influence can be resisted and quenched.

Perhaps you will be surprised to learn that for the first 400 years of the Church ALL orthodox teachers of the word denied this type of "necessitarianism" labeling it Gnostic and un-Christian. Augustine the Bishop of Hippo in Africa, having been a Gnostic before his conversion was the first one to introduce this foreign idea into mainstream Christian teaching and he had to use political power to enforce its acceptance. Believers in Eastern Rome who could still read the Earlier Greek Fathers and study the scriptures in the original tongue never accepted it.

Even Augustine did not think any believer could know whether they were among the elect until they met the Lord. Neither did Luther who was a student of Augustine's teaching. It was not until Calvin that the full rank flower of TULIP unfolded. Like Augustine before him Calvin used political-ecclesiastical power to persecute those who disagreed. This is the real origin of your belief system which anyone who does even a little research can see for themselves.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

God's omnipotence is affirmed in scripture. Your definition of "sovereignty" which seems to be God's control of every variable in creation is not. Making God's omnipotence equivalent to your doctrinal formulation confuses the issue and actually introduces the pagan idea of predeterminism into the text where it did not exist before. My point is you cannot use scriptures about God's power (His being King of King and Lord of Lords) to prove your doctrine of predeterminism because the two ideas are not the same.

The Lord COULD HAVE made man an automaton and pre-programmed all of his choices. However that leads to all sorts of nonsense like God being the author of evil and God making damnation certain and unavoidable by refusing to grant men "saving grace." So, although God had the POWER to create us without volition it was not His (sovereign) will. He wanted a people who had freely chosen to love and serve Him. Of course, the Holy Spirit's influence is required but it is the influence of persuasion. He does not involuntarily convert anyone. As the scriptures testify the Holy Spirit's influence can be resisted and quenched.

Perhaps you will be surprised to learn that for the first 400 years of the Church ALL orthodox teachers of the word denied this type of "necessitarianism" labeling it Gnostic and un-Christian. Augustine the Bishop of Hippo in Africa, having been a Gnostic before his conversion was the first one to introduce this foreign idea into mainstream Christian teaching and he had to use political power to enforce its acceptance. Believers in Eastern Rome who could still read the Earlier Greek Fathers and study the scriptures in the original tongue never accepted it.

Even Augustine did not think any believer could know whether they were among the elect until they met the Lord. Neither did Luther who was a student of Augustine's teaching. It was not until Calvin that the full rank flower of TULIP unfolded. Like Augustine before him Calvin used political-ecclesiastical power to persecute those who disagreed. This is the real origin of your belief system which anyone who does even a little research can see for themselves.

Good post.

 

[Nang]

God's omnipotence is affirmed in scripture. Your definition of "sovereignty" which seems to be God's control of every variable in creation is not.

Can you provide any examples of a "variable in creation" that is caused by a Godly limitation? Is there Scripture that claims God freely chooses not to exercise absolute control over all He has created?

Making God's omnipotence equivalent to your doctrinal formulation confuses the issue and actually introduces the pagan idea of predeterminism into the text where it did not exist before.

I did not touch upon the attribute of omnipotence. Are you assuming Sovereignty and omnipotence are the same thing? Do you have basis for such assertion?

My point is you cannot use scriptures about God's power (His being King of King and Lord of Lords) to prove your doctrine of predeterminism because the two ideas are not the same.

First, the Titles of King and Lord denote authority and ownership. Legal authority and legal ownership over all creation.

Second, omnipotence is an eternal attribute of God's being. Creation is the result of who God is. Two different subjects we can discuss.

You are shifting the discussion quite early and confusing two subjects, in order to present a premature argument to the OP.

The Lord COULD HAVE made man an automaton and pre-programmed all of his choices. However that leads to all sorts of nonsense like God being the author of evil and God making damnation certain and unavoidable by refusing to grant men "saving grace." So, although God had the POWER to create us without volition it was not His (sovereign) will.

This is all hypothetical, and premised upon a false conclusion, so no since addressing it.

He wanted a people who had freely chosen to love and serve Him. Of course, the Holy Spirit's influence is required but it is the influence of persuasion. He does not involuntarily convert anyone. As the scriptures testify the Holy Spirit's influence can be resisted and quenched.

Where does the Scripture testify to the Holy Spirit being only a "persuader" or a mere agent of "influence?"

I chose to delete your brief history lesson, for correcting multiple errors seen therein would not move this discussion forward or edify readers. (IOW's I am quite aware of where you want to head, and I do not want to encourage you.)

Rather, I want to encourage you to provide scriptural support if and when you choose to expand upon this initial post.

 

[Eagles Wings]

Job 37:6-11

 

[Nang]

How about this passage?

Colossians 1:16-18

The word used here to describe the sovereignty of Creator God is "preeminence."

 

[themuzicman]

The doctrine of the Sovereignty of God is the core belief of the Reformed Faith.

However, many professing Christians also believe in the Sovereignty of God, while disagreeing with Reformers overall doctrines.

This boils down to Reformers believing Gods Sovereignty is absolute, while other faiths believe the sovereignty of God is limited. There are various ideas about these limits; most centering around the free will of man.

There are two issues, here:

(1) Absolute sovereignty does not equate to absolute control.

(2) What if God wishes for men to have free will?

You see, Calvinists jump from God's sovereignty to God's meticulous control without asking the question of whether God has chosen to do this, and Scripture is clear that He hasn't.

 

[Clete]

The doctrine of the Sovereignty of God is the core belief of the Reformed Faith.

However, many professing Christians also believe in the Sovereignty of God, while disagreeing with Reformers overall doctrines.

This boils down to Reformers believing Gods Sovereignty is absolute, while other faiths believe the sovereignty of God is limited. There are various ideas about these limits; most centering around the free will of man.

So I will begin this discussion by sharing a few verses from Holy Scripture to back up my Reformed view of Absolute Sovereignty of God:

I Chronicles 29:10-12
Job 12:6-10
Psalm 115:3
Psalm 135:6
Isaiah 46:9-11
Isaiah 55:11
Ephesians 1:11
Romans 9:19-21

I am sure there are more; especially passages that refer to God as being Creator, so please share any that you have that are favorites.

This invitation goes out to God's Truth who has expressed willingness to discuss her and my agreement on this truth, but any others who rejoice in the Sovereignty of God are welcome to bring forth Scripture that praises God as Lord of lords, and King of kings. I Timothy 6:15, Revelation 17:14

Nang

Define the term, Nang. Then we'll see who agrees and who disagrees.

The word "sovereign" actually means "highest authority". What Calvinism teaches is quite different than that. Their theological meaning of the term is "control".

With the real meaning of the term, a sovereign can delegate control over something to someone else without losing his sovereignty because the same authority that allowed him to delegate that control also allows him to recall it. But with the Calvinist's definition of the term, for a sovereign to delegate any control of anything, no matter how insignificant, relinquishes his sovereignty altogether.

They'd never attempt to make such an argument to any Earthly king who is the sovereign of his nation and if they did, they'd likely have their head removed for the effort. But somehow they are perfectly comfortable making such an argument within earshot of the King of Kings and think that there will be no consequence!

Lastly, Calvinists hate to make the distinction between authority and control and when they are forced to do so they make it as muddy and unclear a distinction as they can get away with because the distinction allows their doctrinal opponents to rationally hold to a belief that God is sovereign without conceding any of their other doctrines, chief among them being Immutability.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Shasta]

The list of scriptures you gave for the most part say that God is all powerful not that He has chosen to predetermine EVERYTHING. Take, for instance,

I Chronicles 29:10-12
The Lord IS the owner of all and He is all powerful. It does not follow from this that He chosen to exert His power to control man's every thought, motive and choice. This is an perfect example of what I was saying - taking His omnipotence to be an argument for "sovereignty" which is simply a code word for predeterminism.

Your second scripture, cited to prove predeterminism is this:

Job 12:6–10
There is no question that God is the author of life and that, unless He sustains life, we frail creatures will perish - beasts and men alike. Can we infer from this that God has so deprived man of volition that rather than reason with Him first He unilaterally converts Him? Though you have made this assumption it cannot be derived from this verse. In fact, the first few verses speak about robbers. Now robbers, as we know, are in disobedience to God's moral injunction not to steal. Nevertheless, God permits them to profit even though they are acting contrary to His will. God did not command them to steal. He simply did not take them to task about it at that time. Even as they set about getting their own provision (in violation of God's law) they too end of being dependent upon God. Judgment does not always happen right away.

Psalm 115:3
God does do whatever He wants to. It does not necessarily follow that it "pleased" God to so deprive man of volition, rational thought and moral consciousness that God must save him by a unilateral divine action.

Isaiah 46:9-11 This passage says for one that God knows everything. God also says that "His counsel shall stand" and that "He will accomplish all my purpose." Again, though you have assumed that God's will and purpose is to forcibly convert people by changing them before they submit their wills. That idea is not in the text.

Isaiah 55:11 is speaking about God's prophetic word. Certainly if God says something it will happen, human interference notwithstanding. However, since God's purpose is also redemptive He can and will change prophetic decrees if the people He is speaking to repent. Look at Jonah. He was upset with God because He did not fulfill a prophetic word. Is this an instance where God's word went out but "returned void?" No, because God's intent in speaking is to convince people to change. If they do God can and will change His sovereign decrees

 

[Clete]

The list of scriptures you gave for the most part say that God is all powerful not that He has chosen to predetermine EVERYTHING. Take, for instance,

I Chronicles 29:10-12
The Lord IS the owner of all and He is all powerful. It does not follow from this that He chosen to exert His power to control man's every thought, motive and choice. This is an perfect example of what I was saying - taking His omnipotence to be an argument for "sovereignty" which is simply a code word for predeterminism.

Your second scripture, cited to prove predeterminism is this:

Job 12:6–10
There is no question that God is the author of life and that, unless He sustains life, we frail creatures will perish - beasts and men alike. Can we infer from this that God has so deprived man of volition that rather than reason with Him first He unilaterally converts Him? Though you have made this assumption it cannot be derived from this verse. In fact, the first few verses speak about robbers. Now robbers, as we know, are in disobedience to God's moral injunction not to steal. Nevertheless, God permits them to profit even though they are acting contrary to His will. God did not command them to steal. He simply did not take them to task about it at that time. Even as they set about getting their own provision (in violation of God's law) they too end of being dependent upon God. Judgment does not always happen right away.

Psalm 115:3
God does do whatever He wants to. It does not necessarily follow that it "pleased" God to so deprive man of volition, rational thought and moral consciousness that God must save him by a unilateral divine action.

Isaiah 46:9-11 This passage says for one that God knows everything. God also says that "His counsel shall stand" and that "He will accomplish all my purpose." Again, though you have assumed that God's will and purpose is to forcibly convert people by changing them before they submit their wills. That idea is not in the text.

Isaiah 55:11 is speaking about God's prophetic word. Certainly if God says something it will happen, human interference notwithstanding. However, since God's purpose is also redemptive He can and will change prophetic decrees if the people He is speaking to repent. Look at Jonah. He was upset with God because He did not fulfill a prophetic word. Is this an instance where God's word went out but "returned void?" No, because God's intent in speaking is to convince people to change. If they do God can and will change His sovereign decrees

That's an excellent point!

Calvinists are always reading thier doctrine into the text of Scripture.

 

[Nang]

There are two issues, here:

(1) Absolute sovereignty does not equate to absolute control.

So you claim that God is sovereign, but limited? In what way is God limited?

(2) What if God wishes for men to have free will.

Well, thanks for confirming my premise made in the OP. The Sovereignty of God is either viewed as absolute, or it is viewed as limited . . Mostly because of the (Pelagian) belief in free will, which claims God has a free will, but so do His creatures.

You do realize that is a theological error called "dualism" . . .

You see, Calvinists jump from God's sovereignty to God's meticulous control without asking the question of whether God has chosen to do this, and Scripture is clear that He hasn't.

God has "chosen" to do what? Not exercise meticulous control over His creation? With who or what is He sharing authority and rule?

Do you have scripture that says God has chosen to limit His sovereignty?

 

[Nang]

Define the term, Nang. Then we'll see who agrees and who disagrees.

Which term?

The word "sovereign" actually means "highest authority". What Calvinism teaches is quite different than that.

Reformers teach the Sovereignty of God is absolute; not limited in any way.

 

[Nang]

Calvinists are always reading thier doctrine into the text of Scripture.

You mean like Shasta just read his beliefs into the texts that glorify God's absolute sovereignty?

 

[themuzicman]

So you claim that God is sovereign, but limited? In what way is God limited?

God isn't limited. God, in his unlimited power, has allowed for freedom in his creatures. Do believe God is able to do that?

Well, thanks for confirming my premise made in the OP. The Sovereignty of God is either viewed as absolute, or it is viewed as limited . . Mostly because of the (Pelagian) belief in free will, which claims God has a free will, but so do His creatures.

(1) I didn't confirm anything you said.
(2) You appear to deny God's omnipotence when you deny that God is able to do this.

You do realize that is a theological error called "dualism" . . .

It's only an error to hard determinism, which isn't supported in Scripture.

God has "chosen" to do what? Not exercise meticulous control over His creation? With who or what is He sharing authority and rule?

Is God able to share? Could God, in his sovereign will, choose to give dominion to his creation?

Do you have scripture that says God has chosen to limit His sovereignty?

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

God gives dominion to man. God gives man sovereignty over creation, even as God remains sovereign over man, while giving him freedom to utilize this dominion.

 

[Nang]

God isn't limited. God, in his unlimited power, has allowed for freedom in his creatures. Do believe God is able to do that?

God's authority and powers (attributes) are all spiritual. Are sinful men spiritually free?

You appear to deny God's omnipotence when you deny that God is able to do this.

I do not deny a single attribute of God. No need to. I rejoice in God's authority and powers.

It's only an error to hard determinism, which isn't supported in Scripture.

"Dualism" has nothing to do with "determinism." However, the Reformer believes God's foreknowledge and determinism are absolute, also.

Is God able to share? Could God, in his sovereign will, choose to give dominion to his creation?

God gave earthly agency (free will) to Adam, but Adam lost it through his carnality, unbelief, and disobedience. Adam fell short of God's Law and God's glory.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

God gives dominion to man. God gives man sovereignty over creation, even as God remains sovereign over man, while giving him freedom to utilize this dominion.

The word is "gave" not "gives." Adam lost dominion and freedom of will when he sinned. Ever since, all men are enslaved to sin, death, and the devil, until and unless they are spiritually resurrected from this death, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 2:1-10

 

[themuzicman]

The word is "gave" not "gives." Adam lost dominion and freedom of will when he sinned.

There's no scriptural basis for this.

 

[Nang]

There's no scriptural basis for this.

There most certainly is (e.g Genesis 2:17; Ephesians 2:1-3). Dead men have no power of volition nor dominion over anything.

I really do not want to get into a "Pelagian" argument with you. The OP has already acknowledged that many choose to limit the sovereignty of God by claims of free will in men.

The purpose of this thread is to witness to the Reformed belief in our absolute Sovereign God through a sharing of the many Scriptures that reveal this wonderful Truth.

 

[Nang]

In fact, here is another revelation of the absolute sovereignty of God:

Daniel 4:35

 

[Clete]

Which term?

If you don't want to be treated like you're stupid, why do you keep saying stupid things and asking stupid questions you know the answer too?

Reformers teach the Sovereignty of God is absolute; not limited in any way.

So does everyone else that is a Christian.

I say, without qualification that there is no authority whatsoever that is higher than God and that all authority that exists outside of God (e.g. my life and volitional will) was delegated by Him and can be recalled by Him at any time. Thus, God's Sovereignty is absolute and cannot be successfully challenged by anyone or anything.

"Soveriegnty" is about authority not control.

 

[Clete]

You mean like Shasta just read his beliefs into the texts that glorify God's absolute sovereignty?

False doctrine does not glorify anyone other than Satan and perhaps the one who believes in it. It certainly does not glorify God.