ECT The Sovereignty of God

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Umm, one can be sovereign and be a total jerk.

Yes, if one is a human sovereign . . .

But surely you are not saying Sovereign God can "be a total jerk," are you?

You do know God is KING of all earthly kings, right? SOVEREIGN over all human sovereigns, yes?



And those attributes include hate, jealousy, wrath, vengeance, etc.

All the divine attributes revealed by God, are equal with His attribute of righteousness, holiness, immutability, sinlessness, etc.

So they are all pure and Godly.

The acts of men that exhibit hate, jealousy, wrath, vengeance, etc. are all tainted by bondage to sin, death, and the devil.

One cannot and should not compare the attributes of the Creator with the actions of His fallen creatures.


In what parallel universe do you believe that purposely making one that can be nothing but dirty, and then brutally punishing them for being dirty as "justice"????
Is that some parallel universe where up is sideways and black is yellow???

Did you forget that God created Adam "good?" And gave Adam moral responsibility and choice to obey the holy Law?

Adam dirtied himself (and the entire human race produced from his body).


GOD would be unstoppable whether He chooses to do good or bad.

It is impossible for God to do bad. He is absolutely pure in thought and deed.

Fallen creatures cannot compare God to their own wicked ways, which is what you are doing.

GOD has the authority to make purple elephants, but we should go by what He actually says He will do and what He has done, and not what He could do.

Agreed.

But there is nothing in the OP that attempts to discuss hypo-theticals, is there?

John 3:16 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ecclesiastes 3:8 KJV
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

These are revelations of the purposes and designs of God. They are not permission given for men to hate.

God hates with moral purity; man cannot, because of his sinful human nature.

These truths are understood only by admission and submission to the absolute Sovereignty of the Holy God, and by belief in the principled promises of Genesis 50:20 and Romans 8:28-29.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Let's look at it another way. If Calvin is right about this then even the Apostle Paul had more love for his fellow Jews than God.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh (Romans 9:3).

Christ was cut off and “became a curse” for us but He did this (ostensibly) only for “the elect” and not for anyone else. When Paul said he was willing to be cursed by God he meant for the sake of those who had already rejected. Paul did not say "I would almost prefer to be cut off from God for the sake of my brethren (that is, for those who are secretly among the chosen). Instead Paul said he would be the sacrifice for ALL the apostates! How much less charity does Calvin’s God have for His chosen people than Paul!

What about Jesus' God?

Jesus came for everybody, knowing that God shows mercy to whomsoever he will.

Otherwise why bother asking God to forgive those who killed him?

Seems to me that Jesus, Paul and Calvin all knew who the boss was.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
[Nang;4920144]This is important to discuss . . .

The Sovereignty of God does not stand above His many attributes, but rather, sums them up. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, loving, righteous, just, holy, wise, etc. . . all is why and what makes Him Sovereign. There is no such thing as one divine attribute dominating over another, for God is a simplistic Being.

Thus, His attribute of benevolence does not dominate over His attribute of being perfectly and totally Just. At the core of your argument, is the notion that God is less than loving if He does not save all men, or at least make the effort. Not so. God is revealing and extending justice when He leaves a soul in their sins . . and that is as righteous as His revealing and extending mercy and grace to many others.

Theologically, there is a difference between the qualities intrinsic to God’s being and His character. However admirable God’s abilities are (i.e., His omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience) these are not the reason we worship Him because they do not tell us anything about Who He is. In a similar way an athlete’s abilities might inspire our admiration but a deeper kind of admiration entirely arises when we perceive him to be a hero. This admiration and the adulation comes from knowing who the person is. Not merely what he can do.

If Allah were real (rather than a figment of an Arabian camel-driver’s mind) and if such a deity were truly all-powerful and all-controlling He would STILL not be worthy of worship because of the deficiency of his moral character. To make the God of the Bible fit into his determinist system John Calvin had to do some radical reverse-engineering to make add to God’s attributes that of being all-controlling ("sovereign").

This immediately led to some moral paradoxes. For instance, it made God solely responsible not only for damning people but also for “fitting them for destruction,” that is, for shaping them so that when they arrive at judgement they will be in a moral state that is deserving of wrath. If it is God who shapes the "vessel of wrath" for destruction then He will punish them for the very work He Himself did, a situation that is supposed to enhance His reputation as a powerful all just deity. Rather than answer the inevitable moral questions that arise at this paradigm, Calvin would have God roar at us mortals:

“How dare you ask the potter ‘why have you made me thus’”

Like a totalitarian monarch unrestrained by laws (like the Emperor Palpatine) such a deity can make any decree He wishes to and he cannot be questioned. We mortals must acquiesce and say He is “right” because…well, because He is bigger and more powerful than we are. Besides, if we question Him we too might one day face His iron scepter and be “dashed to pieces like a potter’s vessel.” Though this kind of God dispenses the very laws upon which we base our objections, He Himself does not have to follow any principle. This is quite appalling since, in the Word, God does not merely give laws that are just, He Himself is holy righteous and just.

Lest you think I am making artificial distinctions between God’s being (and the qualities intrinsic to His being) and His character let us look at the life of Jesus. In the incarnation, Jesus laid aside the attributes that were intrinsic to His being - omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience. Acting as a human necessarily meant also laying aside any role He might have had as a universal “sovereign.” As a human being Jesus made decisions about His daily life as opposed to, say, micromanaging the universe. Still, even AFTER He had laid aside ALL the divine attributes listed above Jesus still bore the Image of the Father’s character (John 1:14, John 14:9). Also, even before He had been seated at “the right hand of power” Jesus received worship. It was not His power or position as reigning sovereign that made Jesus worthy to receive worship but His character of love, truth and holiness. These characteristics were fundamental to who He is and to Who His Father is. As such, they cannot be laid aside.

Jesus is is not considered worthy to rule by virtue of His ability to exert His control over people and make them worship Him but by the admiration and gratitude He inspires in us. In other words, believers at least worship Him because of who He is. Though you have made “sovereignty” equivalent to God’s other qualities. I rather think His love is more fundamental because it defines who His is.

IOW's, anything God chooses to do, is good.

You have it backwards. Everything God does is not good JUST because He chooses to do it. It is good because He only CHOOSES to do that which is in accord with His good nature. Pasting the word "good" on all the horrible conclusions of Calvinism does not make those ideas just or good.

In our finite and tainted understanding, there is no room for us to find fault with His determinations.

There is a lot we do not know. However, I disagree with your paradigm because I do understand it. I think it is fairly simple, really. I just think it is abominable.


See. There you say it. You find fault with God for not saving or making an effort to save universally.

God has sent a witness to all people. If everyone does not respond it is not God's fault. I do not think universal salvation is possible. On the other hand if God is responsible for ensuring the non-response of the unsaved then He is responsible for their fate. BTW I am not finding fault with God. I am finding fault with the only conception of God that will work in a deterministic system. Unlike you, I do not believe God hates certain people since before their conception. My case is not against God but who Calvin makes Him out to be.

No, the reason we are told to love our enemies, is because all of us are wicked sinners. I have no right to hate, for I deserve the same justice from God as any other. Plus, I do not know if the person I want to hate might not be shown love, mercy, grace and salvation from God tomorrow.

Here is the scripture again:

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Matthew 5:43-45)


Jesus is not saying that we should refrain from hating our enemies because we are not God and only He has the right to hate His enemies. He is saying that loving our enemies makes us like our Father in Heaven who also loves His enemies. In light of this it is unlikely that the Father literally hated the man Esau or his descendants even before they were born.

Appreciation of saving grace cannot be full, until one grasps how righteous and pure God is, in His acts of Justice. Hellfire is a horrible truth, but it is exactly what each and every one of us deserve for our sins, lack of love for, and disobedience against God and His Word.

God will be glorified in His acts of Justice as well in His acts of grace.

For He is the one and only Sovereign God Almighty. (Isaiah 46:8-13)

I do not see how believing God creates sentient beings specifically to destroy them would make me more appreciative of God's many wonderful qualities.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Thank you Shasta, for reiterating the premise of the OP:

You do not believe the sovereignty of Creator God is absolute, but you believe His authority is limited (by the response or lack thereof, of His creatures).

So be it . . .

I do not agree, as this view makes God a mere reactionary.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
God created creatures in His image meaning that, in part, they possessed the power of self-determination. He did this so He would have a race of people who would freely choose Him. He could have created them without volition. He could have programmed them to love Him but then they would be no better than dolls who when their owners pull their strings say, "I love you." This statement is devoid of meaning and humanity because even a very intricately designed doll is inanimate and cannot but say "I love you" when acted upon by a force in the environment. While this might satisfy the fantasies of a child it is most unsatisfying to an mature adult who longs for their love to be freely accepted and returned. The doll's automated response is hollow because it is devoid of the power of choice.

You object to God's allowing His creatures to make choices on the grounds that it makes God "reactionary." Perhaps the better word is "responsive." It would be very hard to read the stories in the Bible in such a way as to make God "unresponsive." He is often much more responsive than we might wish. Is God's every individualized response to a human being "reactionary?" If so then only the Deist God has a valid claim on godhood. However, if God allows us to make choices but "sovereignly" factors our choices into His plan then then THAT requires some truly creative genius, that is, what Paul called his unsearchable riches of wisdom and knowledge. The easier way to get things done is to control everything.

This is not to say I disbelieve in sovereignty altogether - if that word is taken to mean that God often makes unilateral decisions based solely upon His inner counsel. As far as I read God does not do this about everything. Does God need to control every variable to bring about His will. What about the times when He calls and commissions an individual to carry out some mission. He does not consult anyone about this but makes the decision unilateral and, therefore "sovereign." However, as is so often the case in the Bible, human agents sometimes default through unbelief and disobedience. It certainly SEEMS like they had a choice when you read the account. However, we find that even when people do default God has no problems replacing and bypassing them(e.g., Saul and David). God's "sovereign" choice of a particular person is not indispensable to His plan and, in the end, even their rebellion is factored into His plan.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Whenever a believer resists the Spirit and disobeys God, this, in your terms would be a violation of God's sovereignty. After all if God directs them to do something and even influences them they surely would obey if God is "sovereign" in the way you define it. The fact, that He cannot command even His own children shows that He is a very weak sovereign indeed. Of course I am not really speaking of God only Calvin's misconceptions about Him.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Whenever a believer resists the Spirit and disobeys God, this, in your terms would be a violation of God's sovereignty. After all if God directs them to do something and even influences them they surely would obey if God is "sovereign" in the way you define it. The fact, that He cannot command even His own children shows that He is a very weak sovereign indeed. Of course I am not really speaking of God only Calvin's misconceptions about Him.

Indeed the right for man to choose for himself certainly conflcts with the sovreignty of God unless gifting man the right to choose lies within His sovereignty to do so.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
That is really the issue. When I and other with similar beliefs to mine are told we think God is limited, that is simply a reiteration of the Calvinistic idea of "sovereignty." It does not prove in itself that God has decided to govern the universe through controlling every variable. It is more like a political slogan used to make one's opponent SEEM wrong - like the sound bites where the media seek to elicit a "gotcha" statement that exaggerates or otherwise misrepresent the target's views. Like you say, if God has decided to allow men to make choices then that would be within His will and it would not limit Him in any way.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Whenever a believer resists the Spirit and disobeys God, this, in your terms would be a violation of God's sovereignty.

It is a violation of His holiness and His Law. It is the core of unbelief. And all unbelief is condemned.


After all if God directs them to do something and even influences them they surely would obey if God is "sovereign" in the way you define it. The fact, that He cannot command even His own children shows that He is a very weak sovereign indeed. Of course I am not really speaking of God only Calvin's misconceptions about Him.

God created man morally accountable, under Law and commands. Adam did not believe God's commands, and fell into sin and bondage to the devil. Man remains a willful creature, but his fallen nature enslaves him to serving only sin, death, and the devil.

This is why only God could rescue him, for man lost any ability to choose to obey God. Jesus Christ was provided, under the Law, to perform the obedience that no sinner can choose to perform.

What would be easier for God? To create men NOT in His image, who possess no intellect, morality, or appreciation of holiness at all . . or to sacrifice His only begotten Son, in order that loving, willing, and faithful hearts might be gifted to men?

Do people really grasp what saving grace cost God? I Peter 17-25
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
That is really the issue. When I and other with similar beliefs to mine are told we think God is limited, that is simply a reiteration of the Calvinistic idea of "sovereignty." It does not prove in itself that God has decided to govern the universe through controlling every variable. It is more like a political slogan used to make one's opponent SEEM wrong - like the sound bites where the media seek to elicit a "gotcha" statement that exaggerates or otherwise misrepresent the target's views. Like you say, if God has decided to allow men to make choices then that would be within His will and it would not limit Him in any way.

It would be interesting to hear examples of the "variables" in this universe, which you do not think God exerts rule over.
 

Eagles Wings

New member
It would be interesting to hear examples of the "variables" in this universe, which you do not think God exerts rule over.
There have been times in the past few months when I have been tempted to deny God's sovereignty in the details of my single, simple life.

What calms my spirit are verses such as Psalm 96:10.
 
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