Matter of fact is I took him out to breakfast yesterday. The context of your remarks is made very clear by your questioning if I had done anything for him lately. You gave a blanket condemnation of all homeless people as you gave no qualifying remarks to separate out those who could not work for whatever the reason.
The Sound of Freedom
- Thread starter Nick M
- Start date
Good for you!
Bearing false witness is a sin, Gary.
Nowhere did I give "a blanket condemnation of all homeless people."
You cannot quote me doing so, because I never did so.
The qualifying remark was "unwillingness/refusal to work."
As Arthur Brain correctly quoted me, a quote which I stand by:
"Anyone who refuses to work is, by definition, a bum."
Thus, "A homeless person who refuses to work is, by definition, a bum."
Then it should be easy for you to find and quote where I said that "all homeless people are bums."
Go on. I'll wait.
And when you can't find any, I expect you to apologize and retract your insults of callousness and lack of understanding which you made towards me, because bearing false witness is a sin.
Your questioning of me gives context to your remarks.
So you cannot quote me saying "all homeless people are bums," but you're going to stick to your accusation anyways?
Yes, as I don't remember ever seeing you display much compassion for people you don't know or disagree with.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
You don't know whether the Canaanite woman was on schedule or not and to be fair, neither do I. It's speculation either way but the event sure made a point to those at the time and those in the present, at least to those who can see some deeper meaning and not reduced to the passage being Jesus insulting a woman and trying to use it to justify their own immaturity on that score.It wasn't.
This article says otherwise:
That's just your subjective opinion.
And should be prohibited.
God, not "the far religious right," calls it an abomination.
That you have a problem with Him calling it such puts you in the wrong.
By "they" I presume you mean "perverts."
They do indeed have the same right that you and I do, that being, the right to a fair and speedy trial.
If they are caught doing homosexual acts, then they should be tried, and if found guilty on the testimony of two or three witnesses, they should be put to death.
So you cannot name one person within the movement who condemns homosexuality?
As per my previous, you are, demonstrably, an advocate for abortion.
Unless you have recently become anti-abortion without exceptions...?
Correct.
The reason we don't put babies, infants, on trial like we do the rest of society is that babies and infants are incapable of committing a crime.
Hence, the statement "if a baby commits a crime worthy of the death penalty, he should be put to death" is true, though it is a feat that is imperpetratable (I know, not a real word, but you get the idea) to begin with.
Boy, that sentence (pardon the pun) threw you into a tizzy!
Obviously, a baby will never commit a crime worthy of the death penalty, because babies are incapable of such things.
That you got all worked up about it was hilarious, though.
I did give you verses. A long time ago, to be fair, but I did give you verses.
You rejected them out of hand because you didn't like that they didn't explicitly specify children, when the context necessarily implies all who are capable of committing crime.
Of course, if you redefine who is capable of committing crime, then you can simply hand-wave away any verses you don't like, but it doesn't change the fact that you've moved the goalposts.
The verses state that anyone who does such a thing should be punished, and that no pity should be given to them.
The law is the application of the golden rule, "Treat others how you wish to be treated."
Or, more accurately, "You will be treated the way you treat others."
If you bear false witness, what you sought to have done to your neighbor will be done to you. (This is the Biblical standard for punishing a false witness, unlike moder law books.)
If you take someone's possessions, you will have your possessions taken from you. (Restitution)
If you harm someone, you will be harmed. (Eye for eye, hand for hand, foot for foot, tooth for tooth, etc.)
If you take someone's life, your life will be taken from you. (life for life)
The Bible also states that attempting to commit a crime is to be punished as successful.
Thus, if a child commits a crime, stabbing someone in an attempt to kill them, then they should have their life taken from them, and it only makes sense that what they tried to do to their victim should be done to them, for "you will be treated the way you treat others."
How about empathy, compassion, for the victim of such a crime?
Yup. And I stand by it.
If a homeless person refuses to work, he is, by definition, a bum.
If he's not refusing to work, then he's not a bum.
So what's the problem?
If they aren't refusing to work, then all the more compassion to them.
If they ARE refusing to work, then they deserve no pity, and they should eat their own bread.
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies. Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 - New King James Version
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies. Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that...www.biblegateway.com
Read some of the article and nothing new. If you acknowledge that there's a difference between foreknowledge and predetermination then there's your answer. No necessity for needless convolution.
It's not subjective opinion to point out that you are not the arbiter of people's intelligence or salvation, it's fact. You ain't.
You can't prohibit homosexuality as it exists in nature including mankind, that's just science. The Bible doesn't exactly address it to any significant degree and even the usual verses (Leviticus) are questionable in translation. Gay people have just as many rights as you do including the right to live freely from persecution.
If you'd clinked on the link as regards Neo Nazism then you'd have discovered that part of the ethos is anti homosexuality...
No, not an advocate for abortion as my stance on here will testify to and your yardsticks can be pretty easily dismissed.
The reason we don't put babies on trial is also why we don't put toddlers and infants on trial either JR. They aren't sufficiently developed to be held accountable for any crime. Not sure what "tizzy" you're referring to on my part but eh, if you were amused by something then good for you. I dismissed the verses you provided out of hand because I asked you for verses to support your untenable position - that five year old children could be held accountable for crimes and justifiably executed. The ones you did give were clearly referencing adults, not infants. To give Jefferson his due he gave the only defensible position where it comes to children being punished to the point of death, that they were adults. You have no defence for such an execrable position JR and that includes scripture. Where it comes to 'empathy and compassion for the victim'? Heck, I'll go on record here and now just in case an ironic turn of events ensues and I'm fatally stabbed by a five year old kid. I wouldn't want that kid stabbed to death in turn under the guise of "justice" and have nothing but contempt for those that would advocate such and carry it out. It is sick in the head.
Seems to me that you've added qualifiers to your original position where it came to homelessness as I recall you simply labelled them as bums regardless. However, I could be wrong although your ignorance on the score remains the same in essence. As Gary K has ably explained you'll find a great many are simply unable to work and end up in such an unenviable plight due to a myriad factors.
Yes, I do.
Because you don't understand the Bible.
It's not.
More subjective opinion.
Try reading the whole article, instead.
There's nothing convoluted about reason.
Yawn.
We can for humans.
It's called the law.
So you're going to debase mankind because animals do it?
Saying it doesn't make it so.
It addresses it enough for it to be explicitly clear on the matter.
Try Romans 1.
There's nothing questionable about the translation.
Not if they commit the crime of homosexuality.
So you can't name one person who is a neo-nazi who is against homosexuality?
So you support the complete and utter abolition of abortion, with no exceptions?
Good for you!
There was no indication in the verses that the people being punished would be adults or children.
You're reading into the verses something that wasn't there.
Yawn.
Good for you.
He would still be put to death for murder.
Yawn.
And I'm not referring to people who are unable to work.
If you could get that out of your head, this conversation would be a whole lot more productive!
I'm referring to people who are unwilling to work. Always have been.
Big difference.
So, too, was Paul.
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat. For we hear that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies. Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 3:10, 2 Thessalonians 3:11, 2 Thessalonians 3:12 - New King James Version
For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.
Here's a real-world example of "do unto others" punishments. Instead of getting 30 years being locked up in a cage, where he'll likely only serve 15 of those years, and then get out on parole, which isn't a punishment to begin with, he should instead be surgically paralyzed, or made so that he can no longer walk, to match the damage he caused to her body, and be forced to pay her medical bills until she is able to walk again, if ever, in addition to returning the money he stole two-fold, and whatever other punishments would be just for the other crimes he committed that day.
He body-slammed her, and now she can no longer walk, all for someone else's hard-earned vacation money.
He body-slammed her, and now she can no longer walk, all for someone else's hard-earned vacation money.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
If you take away his ability to walk he becomes a burden on society. And very unlikely to legally be able to earn the money to repay her.
I would be in favor of execution in this case.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
By the way I watched the movie a couple of days ago. It was very good and I would highly recommend it to anybody even idiots who can't see past the far-fetched qanon connection. Kind of weird seeing Jim Caviezel smile, after binge watching all five seasons of Person of Interest, during which I don't believe he smiled once.
You know, I used to feel the same way about such situations until I read and embraced the Bible. Prior to Jesus it was "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." Upon His arrival He ushered us from spiritual childhood into puberty when He said "Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone" and "Judge not lest ye be judged". That's a hard pill to swallow for those of us that thirst for righteousness. I have spent no small part of my life trying to see to the prosecution of those who have committed crimes against the community in which I live in the hope that it would dissuade them to little avail. After 10 years or so I had to embrace the possibility that it was just not God's will that this happen in the time of my choosing if at all. This has lead me to embrace the notion that reconciliation and forgiveness is not only possible but, as often as not, the entire point and purpose of such encounters. Looking at the picture associated with your post I see a beautiful woman who may have been something other than pleasant to be around and a young man that has just realized he has made one very large mistake and is fearful of his future. I think that their association will not end here and that the opportunity for growth for the both of them lay before them. Hope springs eternal.
Then you've done something wrong. No, not reading the Bible.
You've let something non-biblical slip into your reading of it.
And after, too.
Whatever that's supposed to mean...
He said that to people who had broken the law by not bringing BOTH the adulterer AND the adulteress, as the law required them to, and who were trying to trick Jesus into breaking the law of the land, Roman law, which did not allow for the Jews to put anyone to death without explicit permission from the local ruler.
Context matters.
Read the whole paragraph. This is not a condemnation of judging:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:1, Matthew 7:2, Matthew 7:3, Matthew 7:4, Matthew 7:5 - New King James Version
Do Not Judge - “Judge not, that you be not judged.
Or, to paraphrase:
"Don't judge, YOU HYPOCRITE! First, stop committing the same sin, so that you don't judge hypocritically."
If Jesus was saying, "don't ever judge," then He would have been contradicting Himself when He said:
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
Bible Gateway passage: John 7:24 - New King James Version
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
What pill?
The one that you refuse to take because you think that judging is wrong?
Have you evere considered that the reason your efforts have availed little is not because of lack of trying, nor is it because "it was just not God's will," but rather, it's due to the fact that our legal system is completely and utterly broken, and when any criminals get their just dues, it's simply a random event in a mindless system?
I tell you now, we no longer have a justice system. Now it's just a system. It does not produce justice. It cannot protect the innocent, and is, in fact, used as a weapon AGAINST the innocent.
If we had a just system, one that punished criminals appropriately, something like this would have never happened.
If a just system were to have been implemented just before this attack occurred, and he was the first case, the appropriate punishment would literally deter 99% of all other crimes that would have otherwise been committed. The crime rate in the country would drop to near zero. GOD HIMSELF GUARANTEES IT!
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness. The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you. . . . According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you. Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 17:6, Deuteronomy 17:7, Deuteronomy 17:11, Deuteronomy 17:12, Deuteronomy 17:13 - New King James Version
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 8:11 - New King James Version
Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Irrelevant.
You don't get to forgive the criminal for the harm he caused to his victim. Nor does any judge.
Judges should not show mercy to criminals. Doing so invites and encourages them to commit more and worse crimes. Appropriate punishments, swiftly and painfully applied, WILL deter crime.
Who now has had her life ruined by the criminal thug in the other picture.
If you think that's the face of someone who fears for his future, you may have a problem with the part of your brain that interprets facial expressions.
That's the face of someone who is unrepentant of his actions, and is simply disappointed that he got caught, and who would do it again, given the chance.
Punishments such as the death penalty are the only guaranteed way to prevent such from happening.
There shouldn't be the opportunity, except as outlined in my post. Excepting that, I agree with Doser's response as an alternative. There is justification in just putting him to death, since he ruined her life.
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Isn't it odd that so many people find equivalent punishment to be extreme?
i.e., eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth
i.e., eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth
It's because they've been taught that "IT'S BARBARIC!" or "We've moved beyond that as a society."
It's a form of idolatry, placing one's-self on the pedestal of arbiter of what is just and unjust, when God Himself has already declared just punishments for criminals.
It's an attempt at being nicer than God.
Something else I find interesting....
People who teach along the lines of "Jesus moved us away from judging to being forgiving" seem to forget that Jesus actually taught "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Or, the corollary you will have done to you what you do to others.
Steal from someone? You will have your possessions taken from you.
Physically harm someone? You will be punished corporally.
Murder, rape, kidnap, or otherwise ruin a person's life? You will have your life taken from you.
Justice is the literal application of "The Golden Rule."
Let's hope you never find yourself in need of forgiveness and mercy as it is abundantly clear you are unwilling to offer it and, being without sin, are not in need of it in your own estimation if your offering is any indication.Then you've done something wrong. No, not reading the Bible.
You've let something non-biblical slip into your reading of it.
And after, too.
Whatever that's supposed to mean...
He said that to people who had broken the law by not bringing BOTH the adulterer AND the adulteress, as the law required them to, and who were trying to trick Jesus into breaking the law of the land, Roman law, which did not allow for the Jews to put anyone to death without explicit permission from the local ruler.
Context matters.
Read the whole paragraph. This is not a condemnation of judging:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:1, Matthew 7:2, Matthew 7:3, Matthew 7:4, Matthew 7:5 - New King James Version
Do Not Judge - “Judge not, that you be not judged.www.biblegateway.com
Or, to paraphrase:
"Don't judge, YOU HYPOCRITE! First, stop committing the same sin, so that you don't judge hypocritically."
If Jesus was saying, "don't ever judge," then He would have been contradicting Himself when He said:
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
Bible Gateway passage: John 7:24 - New King James Version
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”www.biblegateway.com
What pill?
The one that you refuse to take because you think that judging is wrong?
Have you evere considered that the reason your efforts have availed little is not because of lack of trying, nor is it because "it was just not God's will," but rather, it's due to the fact that our legal system is completely and utterly broken, and when any criminals get their just dues, it's simply a random event in a mindless system?
I tell you now, we no longer have a justice system. Now it's just a system. It does not produce justice. It cannot protect the innocent, and is, in fact, used as a weapon AGAINST the innocent.
If we had a just system, one that punished criminals appropriately, something like this would have never happened.
If a just system were to have been implemented just before this attack occurred, and he was the first case, the appropriate punishment would literally deter 99% of all other crimes that would have otherwise been committed. The crime rate in the country would drop to near zero. GOD HIMSELF GUARANTEES IT!
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness. The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you. . . . According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you. Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 17:6, Deuteronomy 17:7, Deuteronomy 17:11, Deuteronomy 17:12, Deuteronomy 17:13 - New King James Version
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.www.biblegateway.com
Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 8:11 - New King James Version
Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.www.biblegateway.com
Irrelevant.
You don't get to forgive the criminal for the harm he caused to his victim. Nor does any judge.
Judges should not show mercy to criminals. Doing so invites and encourages them to commit more and worse crimes. Appropriate punishments, swiftly and painfully applied, WILL deter crime.
Who now has had her life ruined by the criminal thug in the other picture.
If you think that's the face of someone who fears for his future, you may have a problem with the part of your brain that interprets facial expressions.
That's the face of someone who is unrepentant of his actions, and is simply disappointed that he got caught, and who would do it again, given the chance.
Punishments such as the death penalty are the only guaranteed way to prevent such from happening.
There shouldn't be the opportunity, except as outlined in my post. Excepting that, I agree with Doser's response as an alternative. There is justification in just putting him to death, since he ruined her life.
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Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. Are you the Lord?
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So, to you, holding people accountable for their crimes is vengeance?
To me the whole question is something of a quandary. On the one hand we are called to seek righteousness and on the other we are called to be merciful by the same Word. How do we reconcile these two directives? Indeed, much of the contention between those that believe the Bible revolves around what appears to be contradictions in said Word. I would suggest that these apparent contradictions are just that ... they appear to be contradictions as a result of our limited ability to understand them and in this crucible we eventually learn what it is we incarnated in order to learn.So, to you, holding people accountable for their crimes is vengeance?
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We use the context of the various passages to determine their proper meaning.
Do you think that it's "merciful" to ignore crime and the negative impact this has on so many people?
Do you think that God gave us a book that we are incapable of understanding?
Is it possible that we can understand it and that you are making it seem far more difficult than it really is?