ECT The Real Most Miisunderstood Passage in the Bible John 3

glorydaz

Well-known member
Let us look at the passage again:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

Again, the Greek word translated "being born again" is in the "present" tense. In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

The believers to whom Peter addressed his words were born again at the time when they believed the gospel, i.e. it happened in actual time. And the gospel of which he spoke makes it plain that they were already redeemed:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Although there are places in Peter's first epistle which speak of future events I cannot see how it is possible that either of the two passages which I quoted are referring to things which remain in the future.

Well, you may well be right about the tense, although Peter does seem to mix his tenses somewhat. But even in the verses I quoted, there was a past tense in the verse somewhere.

So, do you think John is talking about the same thing here?

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Two issues to consider in both aspects of God's Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery (at least as I understand them)...

Are the difference between the inheritance itself, and the reward of the inheritance.

One is eternal life.

The other is said eternal life's purpose, or privilege.

Spoiler


As with a position one is hired for.

One is not simply hired (saved) rather, one is hired (saved) unto, for, or towards, a specific purpose, or function, in this case, as to or within, God's Overall Purpose; be it within the Prophetic, or within His Mystery aspect of His Purpose.

(Now watch some works based fool come out of the woodwork to respond to that analogy, from a views as wooden in its' literalism as the back woods they have crawled out of, lol)

Anyway, within His Prophetic Aspect of His Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery, a passage like Matthew 19:28, would be the issue of the reward of their internal inheritance.

Not of their inheritance, but of its' reward, or intended privilege.

Their Election of Grace: which is the issue of Service; the issue of His Purpose in calling and saving them, as Israelites, to begin with.

Which is what this passage that follows, is about...

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Because God has a purpose in His Son in an agency comprised of a race of people known as Israelites (meaning sons of Jacob), He will never completely destroy that nation.

What is this purpose, reward that is tied to their eternal life, in those of them who believe on Him?

The privilege of serving Him in HIS purpose.

Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Which speaks of the Son one day working in the believing sons of Jacob.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Again, both the Son, and ye sons of Jacob, are in view.

Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

The Seed one day making possible God's purpose in those of Jacob's mulitplied seed, who believe.

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

The reward of said inheritance? Of their eternal life?

Its' privilege?

Their Priesthood as their Privilege - in - the - land Promised, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

As for that inheritance being referred to in 1 Peter?

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

What righteousness is that?

That righteousness that Nicodemas had failed in.

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

What righteousness was it that was theirs? How was it accessed, or made theirs.

By believing the Law and the Prophets by taking the Lord at His Word...

John is actually a sequal to and commentary on, the Law and the Prophets...

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Believing He was the Christ, gave them eternal life.

And said eternal life has a reward or privilege: each their place within His coming kingdom. Amen for them!

Amen concerning...the Israel OF GOD!

Much can be learned from their aspect of things, about ours.

Same principle, different application.

An inheritance.

And also, its' reward, or privilege.

I couldn't follow what you wrote in the spoiler and it was too long (;)), but I may have gotten the drift. This I know, Peter and John are talking about something different than Paul talks about....our being created IN CHRIST Jesus. Whether that has to do with the indwelling Spirit as compared to a spiritual understanding or not. It's like the difference between the gospel preached to the Jews and Paul's gospel. Reward or privilege.....that could be.

I just can't get past the fact that Peter seems to be focusing almost totally on the resurrection.

Being born again......of incorruptible seed. 1 Cor. 15:38KJV 1 Cor. 15:42KJV
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So, do you think John is talking about the same thing here?

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

I believe that this is indeed speaking of the birth of the spirit, being born again. But instead of "sons" it should read "children." That is the only way that anyone becomes a child of God and we can see that all believers are described by Paul in that way (Ro.8:16).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Already happened.
Same as he started this letter with.


1 Peter 1:3 KJV
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

What is the lively "hope" which has already happened to those to whom Peter addressed his epistle?
 

Tambora

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What is the lively "hope" which has already happened to those to whom Peter addressed his epistle?
Check the tense of "being born again", Jerry.
You said "present" tense, but it is perfect tense ---- meaning it had a beginning at some point in the past and is continuing.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Check the tense of "being born again", Jerry.
You said "present" tense, but it is perfect tense ---- meaning it had a beginning at some point in the past and is continuing.

It is present tense. But since it did have its beginning in the past and it is continuing then it means that it has already happened.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I believe that this is indeed speaking of the birth of the spirit, being born again. But instead of "sons" it should read "children." That is the only way that anyone becomes a child of God and we can see that all believers are described by Paul in that way (Ro.8:16).

Yet here, he talks about waiting for the "manifestation" of the sons of God. Isn't that once again speaking of the resurrection?

Romans 8:18-19KJK
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Check the tense of "being born again", Jerry.
You said "present" tense, but it is perfect tense ---- meaning it had a beginning at some point in the past and is continuing.

Maybe that means the "perfect" time, too. ;)

When we are like Him in glory. That lively hope....

1 Peter 1:4-5 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yet here, he talks about waiting for the "manifestation" of the sons of God. Isn't that once again speaking of the resurrection?

Romans 8:18-19KJK
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Yes, that is speaking of the resurrection. But what is said at John 1:12-13 is in regard to what has already happened. Those who received the Lord Jesus were born of God and became children of God. Those who believed the gospel which was preached to them were born of God (1 Jn.5:1-5).
 

Tambora

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I just can't get past the fact that Peter seems to be focusing almost totally on the resurrection.

Being born again......of incorruptible seed. 1 Cor. 15:38KJV 1 Cor. 15:42KJV
Could be both are speaking of the resurrection (in John and in Peter).

We are told that those that enter the kingdom will sit with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob there. Matt 8:11-12 and Luke 13:28-29

Hard to imagine how Abraham, Issac, and Jacob can be there unless they are resurrected.

So much to look at on this topic!

Thank you so much for going through scripture step by step instead of trying to force scripture to fit a preconceived notion, or take someone else's word for what it says.

I love studying with you!
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
It is present tense. But since it did have its beginning in the past and it is continuing then it means that it has already happened.

Well, we're definitely getting closer to the grave with each passing day. Could it possibly be a promise?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Yes, that is speaking of the resurrection. But what is said at John 1:12-13 is in regard to what has already happened. Those who received the Lord Jesus were born of God and became children of God. Those who believed the gospel which was preached to them were born of God (1 Jn.5:1-5).

Oh, well maybe being born of God is when we believe, and being "born again" is when we are resurrected. :think:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Could be both are speaking of the resurrection (in John and in Peter).

We are told that those that enter the kingdom will sit with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob there. Matt 8:11-12 and Luke 13:28-29

Hard to imagine how Abraham, Issac, and Jacob can be there unless they are resurrected.

Do you think that there will be people in the earthly kingdom who will not be resurrected? What will happen to the believers who will be in their natural bodies when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Well, we're definitely getting closer to the grave with each passing day. Could it possibly be a promise?

Peter doesn't say that it is promised that we will be born again but instead that we are already born again.

Oh, well maybe being born of God is when we believe, and being "born again" is when we are resurrected.

According to Peter being born again has already happened.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Oh, well maybe being born of God is when we believe, and being "born again" is when we are resurrected. :think:

That would explain born of the water (of the word), and born of the spirit with a spiritual body.

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
That would explain born of the water (of the word), and born of the spirit with a spiritual body.

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

Christians have already been born of the Spirit (Gal.4:29).
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Could be both are speaking of the resurrection (in John and in Peter).

We are told that those that enter the kingdom will sit with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob there. Matt 8:11-12 and Luke 13:28-29

Hard to imagine how Abraham, Issac, and Jacob can be there unless they are resurrected.

So much to look at on this topic!

Thank you so much for going through scripture step by step instead of trying to force scripture to fit a preconceived notion, or take someone else's word for what it says.

I love studying with you!

It's wonderful when we actually get to discuss things, isn't it? ;)

I know one thing, every since I finally saw what Nick and STP were talking about, I've seen it everywhere. 1 Cor. 15 has been a total eyeopener, not just for this topic, but for the "in Adam" controversy. And now I'm seeing the resurrection everywhere. It's like the time we spend here on earth is so short, and eternity is so long. I think there is more for me to find about it before I leave this world.
 

Tambora

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It is present tense. But since it did have its beginning in the past and it is continuing then it means that it has already happened.
Perfect tense, not present tense.

You can't get yourself too hung up on Greek tenses, for they do not mean the same as English tenses.
Which is why we have scriptures saying we have been saved 2 Tim 1:9, and will be saved Rom 5:9-10.
And also why it is said that Christ was slain from the beginning before the foundation of the earth, and that He was slain long after the beginning at the time He became flesh and dwelt among us.
It is why most all the promises of GOD are spoken as if they are a surety that will never be altered, but it does not always speak of the WHEN it actually takes place no matter what the tense is for a verb in the story.
 
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