SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
One and the same for his Body.
ECT The rapture is after the tribulation and at the last trumpet
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One and the same for his Body.
Interplanner
Well-known member
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Nope, only those identified in his death, burial, and resurrection will be changed in an instant.
Interplanner
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Sure there are.
Rondonmonson
New member
So what evidence are you speaking of brother ? You have the Rapture, which comes from the Latin word Rapio, which was translated from the Greek word Harpazo, which was translated into English as snatched away or seized, so all three words mean the same thing. Harpazo, Rapio (English Rapture), Snatched Away all mean mean an event in which the body of Christ is forcefully taken, moved from one place to another. From earth to heaven. It can be called whatever you like, its the same thing in the end.
The Rapture is Matthew 24:32-44 One taken, ONE LEFT........The Second coming is Matthew 24:21-31, the Church comes back with Jesus after the Tribulation. Jesus had to tell both options to the Jews the Messianic Jews and those that that have to flee to the wilderness.
No, the PreTrib Rapture is unique to Paul's writings.
Matthew 24's Rapture is explained in Matthew 13's breakdown of the parable about the wheat and the tares and is in connection with an event that takes place at some point AFTER the PreTrib Rapture.
Elsewhere when they ask the Lord where He is taking those; His answer is about the weeping and gnashing of teeth, and so on.
Rondonmonson
New member
Like I said the Rapture is spoken of in Matthew 32-44, that's obvious. The Second Coming in Matthew 21-31. Jesus was sent to ISRAEL ONLY, not the Church. He was obligated to tell both the Messianic Jews and the unbelievers their plight. That was his calling/ministry.
The Wheat is Israel in Matthew 13. The Tares are the evil of this world. The Church is not mentioned, its in heaven.
If the Church was being spoken of, the parable couldn't be true. The Church is RAPTURED, and no matter if you believe the rapture is PRE-TRIB....MID-TRIB....or POST-TRIB, they would go to meet Jesus in the sky and not remain on earth with the TARES UNTIL THE END !! Thus both couldn't grow together until the end.
What I find is people are so prideful, instead of following the facts, they tend to shape the "facts" to their preconceived beliefs.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If you are right then we must believe that sometime after the second coming the Lord Jesus ascended back to heaven prior to the rapture, which you say will happen after His second coming. Where do we see that?
As far as I can see, it will be at His second coming to the earth when he will begin to rule from His earthly throne (Mt.25:31) so I cannot find an occasion where He will return to heaven prior to the rapture.
musterion
Well-known member
Nope.
Actually, your conclusion here that another is being proud for not holding your above same understanding, is due to the same reason your above understanding is clearly off.
I'm simply so fascinated about how things work as I approach their study, that pride is not even a factor.
As when you yourself, I'm sure, find yourself at times, off by yourself somewhere; not driven by some prideful urge to prove one thing or another to anyone; but simply fascinated about understanding what's what about what you are attempting to get a better understanding of.
And yet, even during such actually objective moments free from pride's burden, one can still end up a bit off base on one thing or another here and there.
Where they failed unawares, to be a bit more thorough in their dissecting of a thing as to its' various pieces; not only as to what each is actually comprised of on its' own, but how each part goes together with the other parts to form the whole.
In your case, what I see on my end, is your obviously having failed to break down each part just a bit further as to what it really is, before allowing yourself to form your conclusion about both it and the whole.
As a result, you ended up reading ideas into some of those parts that are clearly not a part of them, but your own.
That is called an error in judgment.
It is not called pride.
Just as your conclusion that I was refusing to agree with your take on things was due to pride on my part, is actually nothing more than your error in judgment once more, and for the above same failure in method on your part.
The thing to do when disagreed with is to allow it to challenge us to get back in the text and study it out a bit more.
Even when we disagree with another person; like them, or not, conclude they are not very bright, or not, or when we conclude they are full of themselves, or even "an enemy of the gospel."
To the extent that we are each free of all that is the extent to which we are each able to much more fully read a thing and or others, a bit more objectively.
That is where the following is looking at things from - that is what allows actually being able to even declare the following, to begin with.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
From God's "neither...nor" perspective, this side of the Cross...
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Lastly, as your post contributed inspiration to my above reflection on these things; thank you
Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the elect would be gathered AFTER the tribulation period.
That's the thing, isn't it?
What's left out of Scripture could easily happen!
The BELIEVING Remnant of the lost [scattered] sheep of the house OF ISRAEL that said Elect (BELIEVING Remnant) was to go out and preach THEIR gospel of the Kingdom to - to the rest of them out there "scattered abroad."
That is not The Elect in The Body - THAT is the BELIEVING Remant of the lost [scattered] sheep of the house of Israel AND His Other [scattered] sheep - Judah; Ephraim, and so on.
Rondonmonson
New member
I stated no such thing. I think you are assuming Matthews lessons have to be in order, they are not, I don't think that Matthew understood the sequence of events as Jesus told them.
Paul was told about the Rapture, the others wee told in parables. The parable of the fig tree and the one in the field being left and one being taken happens before the Matthew 24:14-31 events. Just because Matthew placed this out of order is unimportant. We(Church)are Raptured, go to Heaven to marry he Lamb Jesus, we come back with Jesus after 7 Years, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. Thus Matthew 32-44 happens before Matthew 14-31.
So the Rapture happens, we go to Heaven, then we return with Jesus at the so called Second Coming, we know from scriptures that Jesus came back to see the disciples after he ascended to Heaven.
Rondonmonson
New member
Actually I cited "people" in general, not "another". Meaning that people in general are prideful from my perspective, and that keeps people from gaining knowledge. If we know it, we cant learn it, and from what I see there is 50 answers to simple problems, meaning the Holy Spirit isn't breaking through, because God gives out the same answers to all. People are not hearing. The Holy Spirit tells me different all the time....If we stop learning something is wrong. Plenty of MY OLD IDEAS are out the window.
Now I noticed you didn't even answer the post, you went off on a diatribe about a throw away line, which is very obvious. There are 100's of explanations about the Harlot and the Beast, but there is one Holy Spirit, something is wrong when the Church is not one. Like I stated, I think its pride.
I can go back and reveal many things that I have changed my opinions on lately, because my ideas is my ideas, but Gods revelation is truth. When revelation comes, our ideas should go. IMHO, to many people are not tapped into the Holy Spirit.
If they were we would not have a disjointed church. That's my opinion and belief. Do you think the Church is doing well? The Church is very sick. This is the truth, just like Jesus said would happen just before he returned.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you think that the Lord Jesus' words in regard to what will happen at His second coming to the earth were not in sequence?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here we can see that James was teaching that the appearing of the lord Jesus was imminent, or that it could happen at any moment:
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
Since that appearing of the Lord Jesus could happen at any moment then it is certain it cannot refer to a "coming" whichcannot happen until certain events take place, such as the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Mt.24:15).
In other words, since James believed that the Lord's coming of which he spoke could not happen until the abomination of desolations was standing in the holy place then he certainly have never used the word "imminent" to describe that coming.
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near" (James 5:8).
The Greek word translated "is near" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
Since that appearing of the Lord Jesus could happen at any moment then it is certain it cannot refer to a "coming" whichcannot happen until certain events take place, such as the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (Mt.24:15).
In other words, since James believed that the Lord's coming of which he spoke could not happen until the abomination of desolations was standing in the holy place then he certainly have never used the word "imminent" to describe that coming.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Have you hashed it out yet?
Rondonmonson
New member
You do know the Gospels were not written as Jesus spoke right ? The Gospels were written latter. Jesus could have spoken them in that order, that's kind of irrelevant. I doubt Matthew remembered or cared. The facts are the one is about the Rapture and the other is about the second coming, its rather obvious when one studies it in depth.
I mean look at it, the Rapture happens. The Jewish people, about 90-95 percent don't believe Jesus is the Messiah who live in Israel. Jesus was called to the Lost Sheep, his duty was to tell the Disciples about when he would come back in Matthew 24 (They Asked). He knew that there would be some Christian Jews, of course, so he tells the account of one being taken and one left....Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come......44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. This is the Rapture, of course. Now Jesus has to tell them about the majority of the Jews who will not be Raptured, of course because of unbelief.
So Jesus warned those about the Gospel being preached unto all the world, then the end will come. The Two-witnesses come just before the Abomination of Desolation, they preach Jesus crucified, Israel repents, accepts Jesus as their Messiah, thus they understand when the AoD happens they must FLEE JUDEA !! This is why Jesus warned them, its for Israel, not Christians who are in Heaven, both Jew and Gentle. They flee, God protects them just as Rev. 12 says for 1260 days, but the Dragon is angry, he wants to destroy them, so just as Matthew says, there will be troubles like never before, if those days were not shortened (By Jesus coming back at the 7 Year mark as planned) no flesh would be saved. BUT THEN THE KEY.....
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This is the Second Coming, not the Rapture. Jesus warns the Jews he is protecting, don't go to the False Prophet or fake Christ (meaning they want to draw you out to kill you) for I will come in the EASTERN SKIES.
You do believe the Rapture happens, then the Second coming happens later right ? Some people don't, just looking for clarification so we can understand each other.
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