ECT The rapture is after the tribulation and at the last trumpet

ZacharyB

Active member
Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will
not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth
will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power
and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will
gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:24-27 (NKJV)
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see
the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and
gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.”

Luke 21:25-28 (NKJV)
“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation
of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these
things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV)
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself
will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV)
“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we all shall be changed—
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Revelation 1:7 (NKJV)
“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.”


IMO, the KEY is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 where …
at the last trumpet: dead believers are raised, and living believers are changed.
Will the dead be raised twice? … No, they will only be raised once -- at the last trumpet.


RAPTURE ---------- Matt.24 Mark.13 Luke.21 1Thes.4 1Cor.15 Rev.1
after tribulation ----Y------Y----------------------------------
signs in heavens -----Y------Y-------Y--------------------------
coming in clouds -----Y------Y-------Y--------Y-------------Y---
all will see Him -----Y------Y-------Y----------------------Y---
mourning, fear -------Y--------------Y----------------------Y---
trumpet sound --------Y-----------------------Y-----last--------
gather elect ---------Y------Y----------------Y------Y----------
dead raised ----------------------------------Y------Y----------
believers changed -------------------Y--------Y------Y----------


Now, “You (Jesus) are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals” (Rev 5:9)
1st seal --- The conqueror --- white horse
2nd seal --- Conflict on earth --- red horse
3rd seal --- Scarcity on earth --- black horse
4th seal --- Widespread death on earth --- pale horse
5th seal --- The cry of the martyrs
6th seal --- Cosmic disturbances
7th seal >>> The 7 trumpets
1st trumpet --- Vegetation struck
2nd trumpet --- Seas struck
3rd trumpet --- Waters struck
4th trumpet --- Heavens struck
5th trumpet --- 1st woe --- Locusts from bottomless pit
6th trumpet --- 2nd woe --- Angels from Euphrates
7th (last) trumpet --- 3rd woe --- Kingdom proclaimed
Now, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.” (Rev 16:1)
1st bowl --- Loathsome sores
2nd bowl --- Sea turns to blood
3rd bowl --- Waters turn to blood
4th bowl --- Men are scorched
5th bowl --- Darkness and pain
6th bowl --- Euphrates dried up
7th bowl --- Earth entirely shaken
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will
not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth
will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power
and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will
gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:24-27 (NKJV)
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see
the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and
gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.”

Luke 21:25-28 (NKJV)
“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation
of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these
things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NKJV)
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself
will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV)
“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we all shall be changed—
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

Revelation 1:7 (NKJV)
“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.”


IMO, the KEY is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 where …
at the last trumpet: dead believers are raised, and living believers are changed.
Will the dead be raised twice? … No, they will only be raised once -- at the last trumpet.


RAPTURE ---------- Matt.24 Mark.13 Luke.21 1Thes.4 1Cor.15 Rev.1
after tribulation ----Y------Y----------------------------------
signs in heavens -----Y------Y-------Y--------------------------
coming in clouds -----Y------Y-------Y--------Y-------------Y---
all will see Him -----Y------Y-------Y----------------------Y---
mourning, fear -------Y--------------Y----------------------Y---
trumpet sound --------Y-----------------------Y-----last--------
gather elect ---------Y------Y----------------Y------Y----------
dead raised ----------------------------------Y------Y----------
believers changed -------------------Y--------Y------Y----------


Now, “You (Jesus) are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals” (Rev 5:9)
1st seal --- The conqueror --- white horse
2nd seal --- Conflict on earth --- red horse
3rd seal --- Scarcity on earth --- black horse
4th seal --- Widespread death on earth --- pale horse
5th seal --- The cry of the martyrs
6th seal --- Cosmic disturbances
7th seal >>> The 7 trumpets
1st trumpet --- Vegetation struck
2nd trumpet --- Seas struck
3rd trumpet --- Waters struck
4th trumpet --- Heavens struck
5th trumpet --- 1st woe --- Locusts from bottomless pit
6th trumpet --- 2nd woe --- Angels from Euphrates
7th (last) trumpet --- 3rd woe --- Kingdom proclaimed
Now, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.” (Rev 16:1)
1st bowl --- Loathsome sores
2nd bowl --- Sea turns to blood
3rd bowl --- Waters turn to blood
4th bowl --- Men are scorched
5th bowl --- Darkness and pain
6th bowl --- Euphrates dried up
7th bowl --- Earth entirely shaken


Hi and most of your texts have NOTHING to do with a RAPTURE as there is no Greek word for RAPTURE !!

Paul in 2 Thess 2: is speaking of a COMING / PAROUSIA !!

And in Gal 1:4 speaks of a RESCUE / EXPAIREO !!

Then in 2 Thess 2:3 there will not be a DEPARTURE ( OF THE B O C ) FIRST THEN THE Man of Sin should be revealed !!

There are more and all speak to the B O C and not to Israel's Second Coming !!

dan p
 
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ZacharyB

Active member

The evidence against Pre-Trib in the OP
is just the tip of the iceberg!

But, no one here seems to care that they will NOT be raptured
before the Great Tribulation of the antichrist.

That's A-OK, IF they're ready physically-mentally-emotionally-spiritually.
 

ZacharyB

Active member
Okay, I read some of it ... he doesn't know.
People have to waffle about it to keep the masses happy.
Masses as in the pre-trib folks.

How many last trumpets could there be?
 

Danoh

New member
Okay, I read some of it ... he doesn't know.
People have to waffle about it to keep the masses happy.
Masses as in the pre-trib folks.

How many last trumpets could there be?

Wrong focus.

Paul is referring to the last of God's callings by that gospel that Paul asserts in Gal. 2:2, that he preached among the Gentiles...

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

1 Thessalonians 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

1 Thessalonians 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thus, the actual connection between this, which he wrote first...

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

And this which he wrote afterwards...

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Paul's mention of "the last trump" being a reference to God's last calling WITHIN this MYSTERY Age Grace; and with it; the end of this MYSTERY Age that Paul preached and wrote about throughout Romans thru Philemon.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Well, there will certainly be joy after the last trump is heard after Jacob's trouble and his return. I don't think anybody would debate that. So why start a thread on it?
 

Danoh

New member
Well, there will certainly be joy after the last trump is heard after Jacob's trouble and his return. I don't think anybody would debate that. So why start a thread on it?

Correct me if I'm off on this, and how I might be; but your above reads like you hold to some sort of a hybrid version of the Acts 28er's take on 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess. 4.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The rapture is after the tribulation and at the last trumpet

Greetings Zachary!

Here is a passage which describes the events which will happen when the Lord Jesus returns after the tribulation:

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left"
(Mt.24:37-41).​

When the Lord Jesus comes after the tribulation are those who will be "taken" the same ones who will be "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?

Thanks!
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Correct me if I'm off on this, and how I might be; but your above reads like you hold to some sort of a hybrid version of the Acts 28er's take on 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess. 4.

Rapture is Latin for great joy. According to what I read. Paul posted good news all the time in his letters. The opening post is about the departure of the church, and he does not believe Paul. I want him to open up so he can be shown, then I can shake off my sandals and move to rebuke. I can say that with ease after 10 years on TOL.
 

Danoh

New member
Rapture is Latin for great joy. According to what I read. Paul posted good news all the time in his letters. The opening post is about the departure of the church, and he does not believe Paul. I want him to open up so he can be shown, then I can shake off my sandals and move to rebuke. I can say that with ease after 10 years on TOL.

My own thoughts to that are that the word Rapture has a two-fold meaning in one word. It can refer to...a joy one is...caugth up in, or by.

That old song with the words "caught in the rapture of love" in its' lyrics; illustrates the sense of both.

At the same time, Rapture can just as easily refer to a catching up or snatching away of some other kind, by a force other than one's own.

Which is the sense of the Greek word: Harpazo.

As in the action of raptor type birds of prey; known as Raptors for their manor of swooping down on their prey to swiftly snatch them up from where said prey was just a moment earlier.

Interestingly, in Italian, which, as with the word Rapture, is a language derived from Latin, the word for kidnap (a taking by force) is the word Rapire.
 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
...Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left...

When the Lord Jesus comes after the tribulation are those who will be "taken" the same ones who will be "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?
At a later date and taken in judgment.

See:

Mt 24:40 McGee, MacArthur
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The departure of the church is only mentioned by Paul. He says so. Matthew, one taken in the field one left, is judgment and is not great joy.

Yes, and when the Lord returns to the earth after the tribulation the believers will be resurrected and remain on the earth. On the other hand, when the saints will be "caught up" they will put on new, heavenly bodies becaust their destination at that time will be heaven:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption"
(1 Cor.15:47-49).​

That is why Paul speaks of us waiting for our body which is from heaven:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).​
 
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