The plot of Job requires an unsettled future

Unsettler

Unsettler

Member
The core plot premise of the Book of Job: Both God and Satan do not know what Job will do in response to a future change of circumstances.

The plot falls apart if one or the other knows the future freewill actions of creatures. Would one of you please ask Chris Fisher to do a YouTube video on this? I searched reality isn't optional, but I didn't see anything specifically focused on Job. Seeing how Job is considered one of the earliest books of Bible, it should also carry weight of precedence, meaning the plot of this early book should form the basis of one's theology ("stare decisis").

What do you think?
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

Well-known member
I liked reading Job. To me it was like a long parable. Teaching me that bad things can happen to good people. Job's so-called friends where trying to find out what he did wrong that caused the bad things to happen.
 
Unsettler

Unsettler

Member
Job was a real person, though (Ezekiel 14:14). So it wasn't really like a parable (because it actually happened), and the theological implications remain.
 
Idolater

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
People who know what's going to happen can always act like they don't know what's going to happen, but it doesn't work the other way. People who don't know what's going to happen but act like they do, usually wind up looking foolish.
 
Unsettler

Unsettler

Member
Idolater said:
People who know what's going to happen can always act like they don't know what's going to happen, but it doesn't work the other way. People who don't know what's going to happen but act like they do, usually wind up looking foolish.
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Is the Lord just acting when He blames Satan?
...
>Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited me against him, to destroy him for no good reason.” Job 2:3
 
Unsettler

Unsettler

Member
If you want to object to my thread, please tell me your unobvious take on the meaning of words I quoted. The proof of my thread is the obvious comprehension: That God was incited by Satan to destroy Job for being superficially faithful, which Job was not. What's the definition of incited? Incited means to have urged or persuaded someone to act in a violent or unlawful way. Logically, if God was incited to do something, then He was urged or persuaded from outside Himself, and His resultant actions were not part of His original plan, and, therefore, He doesn't know the future. Conversely, if He does know the future, then what He does is always part of His plan, and He is NEVER incited. As this Scripture is written, God WAS INCITED, and, therefore, God does not know the future.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Unsettler said:
If you want to object to my thread, please tell me your unobvious take on the meaning of words I quoted. The proof of my thread is the obvious comprehension: That God was incited by Satan to destroy Job for being superficially faithful, which Job was not. What's the definition of incited? Incited means to have urged or persuaded someone to act in a violent or unlawful way. Logically, if God was incited to do something, then He was urged or persuaded from outside Himself, and His resultant actions were not part of His original plan, and, therefore, He doesn't know the future. Conversely, if He does know the future, then what He does is always part of His plan, and He is NEVER incited. As this Scripture is written, God WAS INCITED, and, therefore, God does not know the future.
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if God knew of satan's incitement ahead of time how would that change anything.
so it's God's plan , so what ?
so it's not God's plan ,so what ?
 
Unsettler

Unsettler

Member
way 2 go said:
I don't see anything in the definition of incitement about foreknowledge making it not incitement
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Perhaps this re-frame will help: A man is falling inside of a large, infinitely deep hole without a parachute. He has reached terminal velocity. He is currently falling and his next move is to continue falling. Falling is inevitable for the man. He is currently falling, and he knows he will continue to fall. At this point, could you incite him to continue falling? Could you persuade him to continue falling? Could you influence him to do what he knows is inevitable? Could you be blamed for him continuing to fall (due to your incitement?)
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Unsettler said:
Perhaps this re-frame will help: A man is falling inside of a large, infinitely deep hole without a parachute. He has reached terminal velocity. He is currently falling and his next move is to continue falling. Falling is inevitable for the man. He is currently falling, and he knows he will continue to fall. At this point, could you incite him to continue falling? Could you persuade him to continue falling? Could you influence him to do what he knows is inevitable? Could you be blamed for him continuing to fall (due to your incitement?)
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so who is satan and who is God in this analogy ?
and how does that analogy relate to this 👇

The proof of my thread is the obvious comprehension: That God was incited by Satan to destroy Job for being superficially faithful, which Job was not.... He was urged or persuaded from outside Himself, and His resultant actions were not part of His original plan, and, therefore, He doesn't know the future. Conversely, if He does know the future, then what He does is always part of His plan, and He is NEVER incited. As this Scripture is written, God WAS INCITED, and, therefore, God does not know the future.

and still
your "therefore" doesn't follow
I don't see anything in the definition of incitement about foreknowledge making it not incitement
 
Unsettler

Unsettler

Member
In the analogy, "the falling man" represents God, and His inevitable falling represents God's eternal decree (classical theism / Plato-Christianity), meticulously planned in eternity-past to the nth degree so that everything that happens is inevitable and the future is entirely closed, set in stone (unchangeable and without contingency) and, obviously, exhaustively foreknown to God. In the analogy, "you" are Satan "inciting / persuading" God to do the inevitable: What He already was going to do, regardless, AND what He couldn't do otherwise. In this view, of course, God wasn't really "persuaded," He wasn't "incited." He couldn't be. God cannot be persuaded/incited if His future actions are inevitable/foreknown. However, (back to the Book of Job) since Scripture says He was incited, then the future is not closed, but open. God can be persuaded to do things that He wasn't planning on doing. In other words, prayer works (for real), and incitement precludes foreknowledge.
 
Idolater

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Unsettler said:
Is the Lord just acting when He blames Satan?
...
>Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited me against him, to destroy him for no good reason.” Job 2:3
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Nothing you said takes away from what I said.

People who know what's going to happen can always act like they don't know what's going to happen, but it doesn't work the other way. People who don't know what's going to happen but act like they do, usually wind up looking foolish.
 
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