The Order of Salvation

[Samie]

John 15:5 is about those who are already Christians and are being led by the Holy Spirit.

You are adding another heresy to your heretical teachings, Pate. Jesus was addressing His disciples in John 15:5; if His disciples can do NOTHING when NOT in Christ, you are teaching that the non-disciples can do SOMETHING - hear and believe - while NOT in Him?

Without the leading of the Spirit we can do nothing.

Unless PLUGGED IN to the Only Source of Power - Christ - man can do NOTHING, Pate. Stop your heretical teaching.

You are a typical heretic that believes scripture contradicts scripture.

That description fits you squarely, Pate.

There is nothing wrong with the Bible,

So why can't you believe it when it recorded Jesus' own statement that man can do NOTHING when NOT in Him; instead you continue on insisting man can do SOMETHING - hear and believe - to be in Him?

but there is plenty wrong with your doctrine.

Because it does not fit your heretical teaching, Pate?

You were not able to comment on what happened on the day of Pentecost because you can't.

I commented on it but you did not understand, maybe. The verses you paraded relative to the day of Pentecost does not say that people need to first hear and believe before they can be in Christ. Yours is a heretical teaching, Pate.

If, as you claim, on the day of Pentecost people are not in Christ - the only Source of Power - where did they get the power to do the acts of "hearing and believeing", Pate?

Again:

1. By teaching that man can do SOMETHING - they can hear and believe - while yet apart from Christ, you teach heresy because Christ taught that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. John 15:5

2. By teaching that unless man first hears and believes he cannot be born again, you teach heresy because Scriptures say it was God Who caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ. 1 Pet 1:3

 

[Robert Pate]

You are adding another heresy to your heretical teachings, Pate. Jesus was addressing His disciples in John 15:5; if His disciples can do NOTHING when NOT in Christ, you are teaching that the non-disciples can do SOMETHING - hear and believe - while NOT in Him?

Unless PLUGGED IN to the Only Source of Power - Christ - man can do NOTHING, Pate. Stop your heretical teaching.

That description fits you squarely, Pate.

So why can't you believe it when it recorded Jesus' own statement that man can do NOTHING when NOT in Him; instead you continue on insisting man can do SOMETHING - hear and believe - to be in Him?

Because it does not fit your heretical teaching, Pate?

I commented on it but you did not understand, maybe. The verses you paraded relative to the day of Pentecost does not say that people need to first hear and believe before they can be in Christ. Yours is a heretical teaching, Pate.

If, as you claim, on the day of Pentecost people are not in Christ - the only Source of Power - where did they get the power to do the acts of "hearing and believeing", Pate?

Again:

1. By teaching that man can do SOMETHING - they can hear and believe - while yet apart from Christ, you teach heresy because Christ taught that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. John 15:5

2. By teaching that unless man first hears and believes he cannot be born again, you teach heresy because Scriptures say it was God Who caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ. 1 Pet 1:3

Acts chapter 2 totally and completely refutes what you believe. you don't even have the guts to talk about what happened on the day of Pentecost. I am through with you.

 

[Samie]

Acts chapter 2 totally and completely refutes what you believe. you don't even have the guts to talk about what happened on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2 doesn't go against what Jesus said. It was written by Luke who recorded the parables of the lost where Jesus explained people don't start out life already lost. Luke 15.

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold with its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with its father.

So with us. We start out life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned and like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence we are enjoined to repent. What happened in Acts 2 simply demonstrates the people's response to the call to repentance.

I am through with you.

That's a better option, rather than continue proclaiming heresy by going against what Christ Himself taught.

Again:

1. By teaching that man can do SOMETHING - they can hear and believe - while yet apart from Christ, you teach heresy because Christ taught that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. John 15:5

2. By teaching that unless man first hears and believes he cannot be born again, you teach heresy because Scriptures say it was God Who caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ. 1 Pet 1:3

 

[Robert Pate]

Acts 2 doesn't go against what Jesus said. It was written by Luke who recorded the parables of the lost where Jesus explained people don't start out life already lost. Luke 15.

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold with its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with its father.

So with us. We start out life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned and like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence we are enjoined to repent. What happened in Acts 2 simply demonstrates the people's response to the call to repentance.

That's a better option, rather than continue proclaiming heresy by going against what Christ Himself taught.

Again:

1. By teaching that man can do SOMETHING - they can hear and believe - while yet apart from Christ, you teach heresy because Christ taught that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. John 15:5

2. By teaching that unless man first hears and believes he cannot be born again, you teach heresy because Scriptures say it was God Who caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ. 1 Pet 1:3

You are a sad case. Like most heretics you believe that scripture refutes scripture. You believe that the teachings of Jesus refutes the Pentecostal event. Instead of coming to the Bible to see what it has to say, you come to the Bible with your own phony doctrine and try to make it fit what you believe. There is nothing wrong with the Bible. The Bible clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and by faith alone. The God that you believe in does not exist, but you will have to find that out the hard way.

 

[Samie]

You are a sad case. Like most heretics you believe that scripture refutes scripture. You believe that the teachings of Jesus refutes the Pentecostal event. Instead of coming to the Bible to see what it has to say, you come to the Bible with your own phony doctrine and try to make it fit what you believe. There is nothing wrong with the Bible. The Bible clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and by faith alone. The God that you believe in does not exist, but you will have to find that out the hard way.

It's you who teach against what Scriptures say.

While Jesus taught that people don't start life already lost as He explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, you instead teach that people begin life already lost, born in sin.

Again:

1. By teaching that man can do SOMETHING - they can hear and believe - while yet apart from Christ, you teach heresy because Christ taught that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. John 15:5

2. By teaching that unless man first hears and believes he cannot be born again, you teach heresy because Scriptures say it was God Who caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ. 1 Pet 1:3

And,

3. By teaching that people are born in sin and hence begin life already lost, you teach heresy because Christ Himself explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, that people don't start life already lost.

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold with its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with its father.

So with us. We start out life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned and like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence we are enjoined to repent.

Repent of your heretical teaching, Pate, or perish. Luke 13:3, 5.

 

[Samie]

It's you who teach against what Scriptures say.

While Jesus taught that people don't start life already lost as He explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, you instead teach that people begin life already lost, born in sin.

Again:

1. By teaching that man can do SOMETHING - they can hear and believe - while yet apart from Christ, you teach heresy because Christ taught that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. John 15:5

2. By teaching that unless man first hears and believes he cannot be born again, you teach heresy because Scriptures say it was God Who caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ. 1 Pet 1:3

And,

3. By teaching that people are born in sin and hence begin life already lost, you teach heresy because Christ Himself explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, that people don't start life already lost.

Before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold with its shepherd.
Before the coin was lost, it was with its owner.
Before the son went lost, he was at home with its father.

So with us. We start out life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. But we all sinned and like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence we are enjoined to repent.

Repent of your heretical teaching, Pate, or perish. Luke 13:3, 5.

I have one simple formula for you, Pate, so you can get away from teaching heresy:

Remove the IMPURITY - that people are born in sin - from the brand of gospel you now preach, and everything will be Scripturally coherent.

Because people are born NOT lost, they are born in Christ, hence they can do the acts of "hearing and believing".

Because people are in Christ, they rose with Him when He resurrected, and therefore are born again for God caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ.

 

[Robert Pate]

I have one simple formula for you, Pate, so you can get away from teaching heresy:

Remove the IMPURITY - that people are born in sin - from the brand of gospel you now preach, and everything will be Scripturally coherent.

Because people are born NOT lost, they are born in Christ, hence they can do the acts of "hearing and believing".

Because people are in Christ, they rose with Him when He resurrected, and therefore are born again for God caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Christ.

Adam is our first father. We have all inherited his fallen nature. As Adam goes so go we, this is why the scripture says, "Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12. This is also why Paul wrote, "There is NONE righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. As if that is not enough, King David wrote, "In sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5. The problem with heretiks like yourself is that no matter how many scriptures you show them that refutes what they believe they are still not able to come to the truth. It is like an incurable disease.

 

[Samie]

Adam is our first father.

And our Father in heaven is the second? You seem to be in the habit of NOT believing what Christ said.

When He said, man when NOT in Him can do NOTHING, you say man when NOT in Him can do SOMETHING - he can hear and believe.

When He explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son that people are born NOT lost, you say people are born in sin, hence born lost.

And now, while Jesus has said "Our Father Who art in heaven ...", yet you say our father who's in earth ...

KJV Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

We have all inherited his fallen nature. As Adam goes so go we, this is why the scripture says, "Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12. This is also why Paul wrote, "There is NONE righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

Unlike you Pate whose habit it is to contradict what Christ said, Paul NEVER contradicted what Jesus Himself said.

In Romans 5:12 he said "all have sinned" NOT "all were born sinners". Sinning is done AFTER one is born, not BEFORE.

Paul simply quoted what he wrote in Rom 3:10 from Psalm 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

As Christ explained in Luke 15 in the parables of the lost, before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold in the care of its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was at home with his father. So with us. We start life NOT lost. But we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Straying / sinning is done AFTER one's birth, Pate; NOT before nor during.

As if that is not enough, King David wrote, "In sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5.

Conceived in sin, Pate, NOT born in sin. God told Jeremiah He sanctified him before he was born (Jer 1:5), hence, conceived in sin as per David BUT sanctified before birth as per God Himself. And those God sanctified He made perfect FOREVER (Heb 10:14).

The problem with heretiks like yourself is that no matter how many scriptures you show them that refutes what they believe they are still not able to come to the truth. It is like an incurable disease.

That description best fits you, Pate.

 

[Robert Pate]

And our Father in heaven is the second? You seem to be in the habit of NOT believing what Christ said.

When He said, man when NOT in Him can do NOTHING, you say man when NOT in Him can do SOMETHING - he can hear and believe.

When He explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son that people are born NOT lost, you say people are born in sin, hence born lost.

And now, while Jesus has said "Our Father Who art in heaven ...", yet you say our father who's in earth ...

KJV Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Unlike you Pate whose habit it is to contradict what Christ said, Paul NEVER contradicted what Jesus Himself said.

In Romans 5:12 he said "all have sinned" NOT "all were born sinners". Sinning is done AFTER one is born, not BEFORE.

Paul simply quoted what he wrote in Rom 3:10 from Psalm 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

As Christ explained in Luke 15 in the parables of the lost, before the sheep got lost, it was in the sheepfold in the care of its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was at home with his father. So with us. We start life NOT lost. But we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Straying / sinning is done AFTER one's birth, Pate; NOT before nor during.

Conceived in sin, Pate, NOT born in sin. God told Jeremiah He sanctified him before he was born (Jer 1:5), hence, conceived in sin as per David BUT sanctified before birth as per God Himself. And those God sanctified He made perfect FOREVER (Heb 10:14).

That description best fits you, Pate.

Go down to your local hospital and tell the nurses there that all children are born perfect and complete without any defects caused by sin. They will have a good laugh.

 

[Samie]

Go down to your local hospital and tell the nurses there that all children are born perfect and complete without any defects caused by sin. They will have a good laugh.

If Christ's words can't convince you that birth defects are not caused by sin, what will, Pate?

John 9:2-3 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

 

[Robert Pate]

If Christ's words can't convince you that birth defects are not caused by sin, what will, Pate?

John 9:2-3 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The purpose of the blind man was that the work of God would be made manifest in him. Of course they were sinners, but that was not the objective. The objective was that the work of God would be made manifest in him.

Sin, death, sickness is all the results of the curse that God placed upon the world as the results of the fall of Adam. Everyone coming into the world are subject to the curse. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

Those that are born under the curse need to be born again, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed (Adam) but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" 1 Peter 1:23.

The corruptible seed is the curse that God placed on the earth.

 

[Samie]

deleted double post.

 

[Samie]

The purpose of the blind man was that the work of God would be made manifest in him. Of course they were sinners, but that was not the objective. The objective was that the work of God would be made manifest in him.

Sin, death, sickness is all the results of the curse that God placed upon the world as the results of the fall of Adam. Everyone coming into the world are subject to the curse.

No matter how you wriggle out, Pate, yours is a case of escape from the pan to the fire. Jesus told His disciples that birth defects are not a result of sin. People are NOT born sinners, Pate. If not, why would Jesus say that little children are for the kingdom of heaven (Matt 19:14; Isa 11:6-9; 65:25)? Oh when can you take Jesus at His Word, my brother?

This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

It's one thing to quote, another thing to originally speak it. Paul merely quoted. So go to the source and analyze why it was spoken, Pate. Until you do that, you cannot get out from the mire of heretical teaching.

Those that are born under the curse need to be born again, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed (Adam) but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" 1 Peter 1:23.

God caused us all to be born again, Pate, through the resurrection of Christ (1 Pet 1:3). Here:

As revealed on the cross, God fashioned us into the body of His Son, thus creating a new man: Christ the Head, humanity the body (see Eph 2:14-19). When the Head died, the Body died (2 Co 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9; 1 Pet 2:24). When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal (Col 2:13, 14; Eph 2:4-6; Titus 3:4-7).

Christ is the ONLY source of Power. UNLESS plugged into Him, one can do NOTHING. John 15:5. People can hear and believe because they already are in Him. We are born in Christ, my brother. That's good news. Unless Christ Himself blots us out from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good, we are already heaven-bound. see Rom 12:21; Rev 3:5, 21; 21:27; 20:15).

 

[Robert Pate]

I think that you are a religious nut case.

You want us to believe that one man and one woman that are infected with the sin gene can produce a sinless child.

And then you want us to believe that we are born again by Christ without first choosing Christ. I have spent way to much time on you. You are indeed another nut case.

 

[God's Truth]

Satan would have us believe that the order of salvation is complicated and hard to understand and believe. when in reality it is very simple, so that even a small child can understand it.

The Bible says, "There is a way that seem right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death" Proverbs 14:12

Religion is the way of man. Religion will say that the order of salvation is that you must repent, confess, believe, be regenerated, be chosen, be baptized, submit, surrender, etc. If we examine what the Bible says about the order of salvation we will discover that none of the above is true. Perhaps that is why there are so many counterfeit Christians.

Becoming a Christian is NOT WHAT WE DO. Many have become Christians like they have become members of the P.T.A. They have just joined the church like they joined any other association. Some of these do get saved unexpectedly by hearing and believing the Gospel.

Paul tells us exactly what the order of salvation is, "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17. and then again he said, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith?" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.

Paul wrote to the Hebrews, "For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it, Hebrews 4:12." Some heard the Gospel and believed it, some heard the Gospel and rejected it. This is how it is, the Gospel goes out in the world, some hear it and believe it, others hear it and reject it.

In the Gospel we hear that Jesus atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. For some this is very hard to believe and embrace. There are many that cannot believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, they are unbelievers. This Gospel calls for a response, to not respond is a response. Those that respond with a heart full of love and gratitude for what Christ has done for them are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Even a young child can rebuke you with the truth.

Ask any young child at about the age of seven if they have to obey Jesus.

Ask any young child if they have to obey their dad and mom.

lol Maybe they need a special enabling to obey their parents, or maybe a spanking.

 

[Bright Raven]

Even a young child can rebuke you with the truth.

Ask any young child at about the age of seven if they have to obey Jesus.

Ask any young child if they have to obey their dad and mom.

lol Maybe they need a special enabling to obey their parents, or maybe a spanking.

John 3:36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[God's Truth]

John 3:36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Haven't you heard, belief alone is dead and can't save anyone. Do you just believe one scripture or all of them?

 

[Bright Raven]

Haven't you heard, belief alone is dead and can't save anyone. Do you just believe one scripture or all of them?

:duh: what does the second half of the verse say? "but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,"
Got it?

 

[God's Truth]

:duh: what does the second half of the verse say? "but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,"
Got it?

So why in the world are you posting that scripture to me? Say you agree with me, or say you do not.

 

[Bright Raven]

So why in the world are you posting that scripture to me? Say you agree with me, or say you do not.

Rather obvious I agree isn't it?