The New Geology?

bob b

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From the Abstract:

Mudstones make up the majority of the geological record. However, it is difficult to reconstruct the complex processes of mud deposition in the laboratory, such as the clumping of particles into floccules. Using flume experiments, we have investigated the bedload transport and deposition of clay floccules and find that this occurs at flow velocities that transport and deposit sand. Deposition-prone floccules form over a wide range of experimental conditions, which suggests an underlying universal process. Floccule ripples develop into low-angle foresets and mud beds that appear laminated after postdepositional compaction, but the layers retain signs of floccule ripple bedding that would be detectable in the rock record. Because mudstones were long thought to record low-energy conditions of offshore and deeper water environments, our results call for reevaluation of published interpretations of ancient mudstone successions and derived paleoceanographic conditions.

One reason the theory has been muddy is that there are 32 variables to take into account. It’s a fundamentally complex system. Floccule formation, for instance, relies on variables such as “settling velocity, floccule size, grain-size distribution, ion exchange behavior, and organic content” as well as particle concentration and the intensity of turbulence. Other variables affecting the outcome include electromagnetic properties, biological material present, chemical composition, and more. The scientists did the best they could controlling variables. They tried distilled water, lake water, and salt water, with various types of mud particles. They watched what happened on all sides of the flume, including looking up from the bottom, and examined the floccules with electron microscopes.
Previously, geologists thought that mudstone had to be deposited in calm water because currents would disrupt the previously-deposited mud on the seabed or lakebed. Not so. These experiments showed that laminated mud can be deposited under currents strong enough to transport sand particles – orders of magnitude larger than mud particles. Floccules can actually grow up to the size of sand particles.
A glimpse at the implications of this paradigm shift can be gleaned from these quotes:

A century ago, Henry Clifton Sorby, one of the pioneers of geology, pointed to the study of muds as one of the most challenging topics in sedimentary geology. Today, with our knowledge clearly expanded, muddy sediments are still considered highly complex systems that may require as many as 32 variables and parameters for a satisfactory physicochemical characterization. More research may clarify interdependencies between a number of these parameters and may allow us to consider a smaller number of variables, but the fundamental complexity of muddy sediments is likely to remain.

Mudstones constitute up to two-thirds of the sedimentary record and are arguably the most poorly understood type of sedimentary rocks. Mudstone successions contain a wealth of sedimentary features that provide information about depositional conditions and sedimentary history, but presently we lack the information that would allow us to link features observed in the rock record to measurable sets of physical variables in modern environments.
It appears that irrespective of what drives flocculation in a given experiment, flocculation provides deposition-prone particles without fail over a wide range of experimental conditions.
Our observations do not support the notion that muds can only be deposited in quiet environments with only intermittent weak currents. Instead, bedload transport of flocculated mud and deposition occurs at current velocities that would also transport and deposit sand. Clay beds can accrete from migrating floccule ripples under swiftly moving currents in the 10 cm/s to 26 cm/s velocity range, a range likely to expand as flows with larger sediment concentrations are explored.
Whereas the clay beds formed in our experiments consist of downcurrent-inclined laminae, they appear to be parallel-laminated once fully compacted (Fig. 4A). Because floccule ripples are spaced 30 to 40 cm apart, ancient sediments of this origin are likely to appear parallel-laminated (Fig. 4C) as well.
Detection of ripple-accreted muds in the rock record will require carefully defined, and yet to be developed, criteria.
In the course of two decades of detailed studies of shales and mudstones, one of us has seen comparable low-amplitude bedforms (Fig. 4D) in shale units that were deposited in a wide variety of environments.... This suggests that mud accretion from migrating floccule ripples probably occurred throughout geologic history.
Many ancient shale units, once examined carefully, may thus reveal that they accumulated in the manner illustrated here, rather than having largely settled from slow-moving or still suspensions. This, in turn, will most likely necessitate the reevaluation of the sedimentary history of large portions of the geologic record.

As if these issues are not daunting enough, Macquaker and Bohacs added this thought:

The results call for critical reappraisal of all mudstones previously interpreted as having been continuously deposited under still waters. Such rocks are widely used to infer past climates, ocean conditions, and orbital variations.

In short, a huge tower of interpretation, touching on fields as diverse as climate change, earth history and even solar system dynamics, has been built on a flawed assumption: that mudstones always settled out slowly in calm water. Now that the assumption is shown to be unfounded, it is not just the geologists who will have to consider a paradigm shift.
Speaking of mud, Live Science reported the discovery of undersea mud waves in the Arctic, an “unexpected surprise.” In a quizzical inversion of the above story, scientists thought strong currents were required for such things; “researchers had thought the Arctic was too calm to produce the mud waves,” the article stated. “Scientists aren’t sure what formed them.” With apologies to Thomas Kuhn, maybe it was another paradigm shift.
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1. Macquaker and Bohacs, “Geology: On the Accumulation of Mud,” Science, 14 December 2007: Vol. 318. no. 5857, pp. 1734-1735, DOI: 10.1126/science.1151980.
2. Schieber, Southard and Thaisen, “Accretion of Mudstone Beds from Migrating Floccule Ripples,” Science, 14 December 2007: Vol. 318. no. 5857, pp. 1760-1763, DOI: 10.1126/science.1147001.
 

Johnny

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Sign me up for your Paradigm Shifts newsletter please. I'd like to stay current on which paradigms are shifting week to week.
 

gsweet

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i love it; this is what science is about! all this is pretty unique observation, but i have to question the seemingly 'cut and dry' interpretation of it. while this work is pretty distinct and does contradict a lot of the previous depositional hypotheses, i really don't think that it can dictate a "one and only" process. i'm pretty positive that there are many records/experiments documenting mudstone deposition and subsequent lithification in calm water environments as well. if the interpretation of the geological record hinges so heavily on mudstone formational processes (and it does), you would think that various other flume experiments focused on mud/siltstone would have been conducted and recorded. afterall, it seems pretty counterintuitive to just assume a depositional ideal for sediment package and leave it at that. i'm gonna go check that out.

this is really interesting, thanks for pointing it out!
 

fool

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Perhaps migrating floccule ripples could be the solution to the starlight travel problem as well :think:
 

Stripe

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It seems fairly obvious that if a sedimentary layer has a large degree of homogeneity or shows a steady grading then there is no way it was not deposited all at the same time.
 

bob b

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Sign me up for your Paradigm Shifts newsletter please. I'd like to stay current on which paradigms are shifting week to week.

You're just unhappy because everything you learned in school is becoming obsolete.

:rotfl:
 

Stripe

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Wait, wait wait. People LEARN stuff in school?

Man, all I ever did was get beat up... :(
 

Johnny

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You're just unhappy because everything you learned in school is becoming obsolete.

:rotfl:
I don't know much about geology.

OK. Let's just say that Johnny was indoctrinated in Naturalism.
As opposed to your indoctrination with what? Supernaturalism? What should I have been indoctrinated with? We're all indoctrinated. What's wrong with naturalism? Naturalism at least has roots in rationalism, whereas supernaturalism is virtually synonymous with superstition.
 

bob b

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I don't know much about geology.

As opposed to your indoctrination with what? Supernaturalism? What should I have been indoctrinated with? We're all indoctrinated. What's wrong with naturalism? Naturalism at least has roots in rationalism, whereas supernaturalism is virtually synonymous with superstition.

It's not one or the other Johnny.

Creation of the cosmos and life was definitely not "natural".

Neither was the incarnation.
 

bob b

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You can't have both, by definition.

I beg to differ.

I accept that 99.999999+% of events that happen in our world have a natural cause.

Any Christian, by definition, has to believe that some events had a supernatural cause.

The Incarnation, for example.
 

bob b

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Read up on what a philosophical and/or methodological naturalist is.

Johnny, if you don't believe in the Incarnation then you are not a Christian, by definition, so you should change your profile to agree with your actual beliefs.

If you do believe in the Incarnation then you should also agree with me that just because 99.999999+% events in the world have natural causes doesn't mean that some events were not supernatural.
 

noguru

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Johnny, if you don't believe in the Incarnation then you are not a Christian, by definition, so you should change your profile to agree with your actual beliefs.

If you do believe in the Incarnation then you should also agree with me that just because 99.999999+% events in the world have natural causes doesn't mean that some events were not supernatural.

Bob you are wasting our time again. When you have something other than your religious perspective available to counter the evidence for natural processes please let us know.
 

Johnny

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bob b said:
OK. Let's just say that Johnny was indoctrinated in Naturalism.
Johnny said:
As opposed to your indoctrination with what? Supernaturalism? What should I have been indoctrinated with? We're all indoctrinated.
bob b said:
It's not one or the other Johnny.
Johnny said:
You can't have both, by definition.
bob b said:
I beg to differ.
Johnny said:
Read up on what a philosophical and/or methodological naturalist is.
bob b said:
Johnny, if you don't believe in the Incarnation then you are not a Christian, by definition, so you should change your profile to agree with your actual beliefs.

If you do believe in the Incarnation then you should also agree with me that just because 99.999999+% events in the world have natural causes doesn't mean that some events were not supernatural.
I think we're talking past each other here. I'm saying that you can't be a philosophical (or methodological) naturalist and somehow embrace the supernatural. I'm not saying that one can't hold both beliefs -- but in doing so you can't really be a naturalist.
 

bob b

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I think we're talking past each other here. I'm saying that you can't be a philosophical (or methodological) naturalist and somehow embrace the supernatural. I'm not saying that one can't hold both beliefs -- but in doing so you can't really be a naturalist.

If you are saying that you do believe in the Incarnation, then I am glad to welcome you as a member of the body of Christ.

You see it is not that hard to admit that you believe in the supernatural while conducting your scientific studies within a framework of Naturalism.

Creation of the cosmos and life are of course two more areas where it makes very good sense to assume that these were the work of God rather than the blind forces of nature.
 

noguru

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If you are saying that you do believe in the Incarnation, then I am glad to welcome you as a member of the body of Christ.

You see it is not that hard to admit that you believe in the supernatural while conducting your scientific studies within a framework of Naturalism.

Creation of the cosmos and life are of course two more areas where it makes very good sense to assume that these were the work of God rather than the blind forces of nature.

Bob, do you think that a scientist who is also a Christian should admit his/her acceptance of the resurrection of Christ into the material sciences as evidence for supernaturalism? :rolleyes:
 

bob b

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Bob, do you think that a scientist who is also a Christian should admit his/her acceptance of the resurrection of Christ into the material sciences as evidence for supernaturalism? :rolleyes:

In the culture of our times this would be fatal to one's career.

And besides it is not necessary. It is sufficient that a scientist simply keep in mind that some things are beyond science. There is plenty to do in biology finding out how cells and organisms work without getting into the realm of religious belief such as the creation of the cosmos and first life.

Besides, it is "crazy" with all we now know to believe that the cosmos created itself and that life was not designed by a supernatural agent.
 
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