Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
As usual, you make so sense. Or perhaps you think that the fourth generation from Adam has not yet passed?
ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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As usual, you make so sense. Or perhaps you think that the fourth generation from Adam has not yet passed?
glorydaz
Well-known member
You need to actually read the entire verse to understand what Paul is saying. "Conversation" refers to habitual practice....fulfilling the desires of the flesh and mind.
We see it's certainly not the nature of those who do not fulfill the desires of the flesh and mind.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Hence, you cannot make the claim that any kind of "sin nature" is passed down. Men are able to choose...some choose wrongly, like Cain did, and some choose rightly, like Abel did.
Those little children the Lord spoke of certainly were NOT children of wrath, were they?
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, she asked where it said anything about it in the Bible. It doesn't. That's why you see everyone discussing it.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Derp? :idunno:
musterion
Well-known member
glorydaz
Well-known member
:rotfl:
Shasta
Well-known member
Now we have an interesting world consisting of two classes of people. One part are those who continue walking in the same Spirit who supposedly gave them spiritual life at conception. If these individuals continue obeying Christ throughout life they will not need a Redeemer. The only "judgment" they will experience (I suppose) is a judgment of works in order to receive rewards. The rest of us need the cross. This is a contradiction to such basic truths as "all men are sinners" (Romans 3:23)Paul does not say that SOME men are sinners but ALL.
Contrary to what you have said Romans 2:5-9 does not say God will deal with SOME (rare law-keeping individuals) according to their deeds but that He will deal with ALL men that way. You cannot make ALL into SOME without doing violence to the text. Also, no amount of law-keeping can can bring eternal life to anyone anyway. Your error lies in assuming Romans 2:5-9 is about "law-keeping."
What is amazing to me is that you allow even theoretically the possibility that people can inherit salvation because of their "works." At other times, you have adamantly opposed the mere suggestion of this idea. I suppose admitting people into eternity through works is collateral damage when it comes to the more important task establishing Pelagianism. Of course, if a person could really keep the law perfectly (theoretically) then they would not need a savior. However, the fact that Jesus is the savior of all men indicates that all men need saving (1 Timothy 4:10).
You guys need to get your story straight...
Sometime ago, when I posted that very definition of "conversation" together with various passages showing that is exactly what "conversation" refers to, various of your little club on TOL high-fived one of your club member's error posted to me that the word refers to today's definition - of people talking to one another :chuckle:
dodge
New member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
First of all, at Romans 2:5-9 Paul is speaking about how men will be judged strictly according to their "deeds" or "works." And the standard by which they will be judged is "law" (the law of Moses for the Jews and for the Gentiles the law written in their heart of which the conscience bears witness (Ro.2:11-15). And Paul makes it plain later in the same discourse that by the works of law no one will justified in the eyes of God (Ro.3:20).
And then Paul speaks of a righteousness of God apart from law which comes to all who believe and those who believe are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).
That is the only way that any person down through history has been saved.
I said that theoretically a person can inherit eternal life by their works. Here Paul says that it is the doers of the law who shall be justified:
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).
If it was theoretically impossible for those under the law to be justified before God by law-keeping then it certainly would make no sense for Paul to say that "the doers of the law shall be justified." If "law" was never a way whereby a man could theoretically obtain righteousness then why would Paul say that "Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes"?:
"For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one that believes" (Ro.10:4; DBY).
Paul also speaks of the believing remnant out of national Israel and says that their election is of grace and therefore "it is no more of works":
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace" (Ro.11:5-6).
If no one could theoretically be saved by "works" then why would Paul say that "it is no longer of works"?
All of this demonstrates that no one is born in a state of being that can be described as being spiritually dead. If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).
All men have the "ability" to inherit eternal life by their works but men do not have the "will" to do it. At some point all men decide you go their own way instead of the LORD's way and they sin. That is why all men need a Savior.
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glorydaz
Well-known member
Oops, you're mixed up before you even get off the start line. Job and Noah and Daniel were in communication with God, but they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. That doesn't mean they were spiritually dead, or they wouldn't have been able to communicate with God. They did obey God, and were quite successful at it (according to Him).
Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
Here we see....the doers of the law shall be justified. There's the promise.
Romans 2:12-15 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
The judgment of the sheep and goats is not about members of the body of Christ, so who do you think it's for?
Matt. 24:39-42 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
This silliness of labelling what you don't understand as "Pelagianism" is getting old. Why don't you stop it? Do you realize that Paul's gospel and the indwelling Spirit actually did change things?
Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You just can't help yourself, can you? I've never heard anyone say any such thing.
I swear you'll dig under whatever old garbage heap you can find to make it look like you said something really brilliant at some time or another. :AMR:
Why don't you go eat a little humble pie, and then you can join the rest of us in actually discussing the word of God?
Very well, your stubborness, I'll see if I can track down the post.
At which point, which will prefer; apple, or crow? :chuckle:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes, track it down. :thumb:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Lol, I was hoping you'd pass. Very well, one plate of cold black crow comin up
I know you were, but I'll have to see it to believe it.
It's a recurring pattern of his.
Speaking of recurring patterns, Tam, why is the Delete Post in the Edit Post feature missing again?
First it was there, then it was not a few days ago, then it was there, after I posted to Knight, and now it is not again.
