beloved57
Well-known member
You skirting. His objective /will is that not any should perish, but all come to repentance. Did He accomplish that ? Yes or no ?
The LORD is not willing that any should perish
- Thread starter beameup
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The word used in 2 Peter 3:9 is boulomai.
| Strong's g1014 - Lexical: βούλομαι - Transliteration: boulomai - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: boo'-lom-ahee - Definition: to will, intend, desire, wish. - Origin: Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will," i.e. (reflexively) be willing. - Usage: be disposed, minded, intend, list, (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare ethelo. - Translated as (count): desiring (5), I want (4), intending (2), purposed (2), purposing (2), Resolving (2), has chosen (1), Having willed (1), he was willing (1), He wills (1), I desire (1), I have been wanting (1), I purposed (1), I was planning (1), might choose (1), might resolve (1), resolve (1), resolves (1), was wishing (1), We resolve (1), were desiring (1), were wanting (1), willing (1), wish you (1), You are willing (1), you intend (1). |
Scripture shows that God absolutely, genuinely desires that all men are saved.
Unfortunately, scripture also shows that despite His desire, He doesn't always get what He wants, because of men's rebellion against Him.
This is called moving the goalposts. It's a logical fallacy. You asked:
I responded:
You then followed up with:
My response was:
God's objective was to provide a means for reconciliation, BECAUSE HE IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH.
He completely accomplished that objective on the cross.
beloved57
Well-known member
I know what the word is .. Its the same word James uses in James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
It means:
- to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded
So did God accomplish His purpose, His deliberation in preventing from perishing and bringing to repentance them He willed it for ? Will any of them, not repent and persih ?
Repeating your fallacy won't make me respond to it.
God's objective was to provide reconciliation to men.
God completed his objective of providing a means for people to be reconciled to Him. He did so on the cross, because He is not willing, He does not desire, for any to perish.
Lon
Well-known member
He causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
There is no way that we can get around God's word. I'm committed to it, rather than any systematic theology. For Calvinists, it means that God does/did desire no one perish. Of course He doesn't want sin's infection and damage to His loved creation.
Psalm 1:6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked leads to destruction
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.
1 Peter 2:7To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word— and to this they were appointed.
For me, this is the end-all concerning my theology:
Matthew 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
The analogy says plainly an enemy is responsible, thus anyone seeing God is not responsible for sin, is correct: has to be.
In the analogy, there is also something vague conveyed (I think purposefully): Lest...you...uproot...wheat. It means, even if God knows which are wheat and which are weeds, 1) That we don't and God is concerned lest any of His own perish. Every Open Theist will agree that as believers, we are the ones precious to Him, He is concerned about. 2) That He really is unwilling that any perish. In the analogy, weeds are always weeds and wheat is always wheat (Calvinism) but at least it is clear that we, His creation, don't know which is which. There is a real sense then that the weeds and wheat look exactly the same until the harvest. -Lon
Yes. There will be those who perish, because they did not repent. It won't be because God made them for perishing, nor will it be because God predestined them to damnation for His pleasure (which is contra-scripture).
Whether they perish or not has little to do with God's desire for them to repent.
Lon
Well-known member
Answer first: Yes. He doesn't want weeds to be weeds.
Rephrasing the question I said 'yes' to: If God is not willing that any should perish, will any perish? Yes. While He prepares the wicked for destruction, it was not His intent, according to the wheat and tares analogy. "An enemy sowed tares." It is in scripture, exactly this way. Whatever theology we embrace, it always always always must stand the test of scripture. If it doesn't, be open to however God will change it. We are malleable, He is not. We change to fit Him, not vice versa (I always have to watch for this in myself).
Lon
Well-known member
A bit of a problem here, is that scripture says the wicked were made for destruction. Proverbs 16:4 While 'made' is the thrust of the verse, not 'for the day of destruction' "for" yet conveys a connection and reading my bible, I have to allow it to make me, instead of me making it. Simply, I just want to know what it says, then follow it.
I follow your reasoning again here, but before I say it is overstated (as I'm reading it), could you explain 'God's desire has little to do with those perishing or not?' Thanks.
There's all kinds of things that God has desired that He didn't get.
Read the Old Testament much?
Read the gospels much?
beloved57
Well-known member
Those God is not willing that they shall not perish, God has done something for them that ensures the same. He has given them to His Son, and sent Him into the World to be a Saviour unto them. Its His Sons responsibility to keep them from perishing and bring them to repentance. Its Gods will that only all the ones He gave to His Son that they shall not perish. Jn 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Jesus says of the same, them He must bring Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
That must bring denotes giving them repentance, a change of mind !
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Jesus says of the same, them He must bring Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
That must bring denotes giving them repentance, a change of mind !
beloved57
Well-known member
Its Gods Sheep that God isnt willing that any of them shall perish. Jesus taught this to Peter during His earthly ministry as well Matt 18:13-14
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
beloved57
Well-known member
Those people whom God is not willing that they should perish[2 Pet 3:9], the very converse is true, He has not appointed them to wrath, but to obtain Salvation, by the Lord Jesus Christ 1 Thess 5:9-10
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
beloved57
Well-known member
God always acts on His Will, His deliberation, His Purpose. Job wrote Job 23:13
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
God sees to it that His Mind /Will is executed and accomplished to the minutest detail !
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. - Proverbs 16:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs16:4&version=NKJV
Who is it that's made for destruction? Is it the wicked person? Or is it a person who doesn't exist yet or who hasn't become wicked yet?
If you say the latter, that leads to confirmation bias for the belief that certain people were predestined for destruction, while others were predestined for eternal life. This is the wrong view, because it does damage to the rest of scripture.
What it says is that the wicked, ie, those who are already wicked, meaning that they are not innocent, and have, by their own actions, become wicked, will be destroyed, were made for the day of evil (the literal translation in the verse above).
In other words:
The verse above contains a figure of speech that means simply that God has set the consequences to "day of evil" for those who are, by their own actions, wicked.
God's desire, as per 2 Peter 3:9, is that all would come to repentance, so that they don't perish.
Yet most do not repent, and therefore they will perish, because they have not repented. They won't perish because God wanted them to perish, nor will they not perish because God didn't want them to perish. It's on their own decision that they perish or not, either to repent or to reject Him.
There you go ignoring all of the points that have been made to you again, because you don't have a good answer to them. That's because there isn't any. You cannot defend your beliefs because they are not supported by scripture.
You should acknowledge that fact and repent, instead of hardening your heart against the truth.
beloved57
Well-known member
Looks like you doing the ignoring. Im explaining the truth !
Says the one who has ignored everything we"ve said so far in this thread and is continuing to post as if no one has said a word. And you're not explaining anything, let alone posting truth...
Hypocrite!
beloved57
Well-known member
You have ignored everything I have stated.
Bearing false witness is a sin, B57.
You should repent.
And then respond to my and other's posts, particularly posts 22, 24, 25, 27, 28, and 30.