The Joys of Catholicism

[Nick M]

Show me where it says that in the Bible.

I say that because what you’re saying is contrary to the Scriptures. She will be resurrected the same as the rest of the Israelites who have faith plus works. There’s nothing to indicate otherwise.

 

[Right Divider]

We only know she was assumed body and soul.

You ASSUME this... incorrectly.

 

[Idolater]

Show me where it says that in the Bible.

According to this standard Mary is still alive since we have no Biblical record of her ever dying. Same goes for Peter, Paul, John etc. Even Lazarus must still be around here somewhere.

 

[Idolater]

You ASSUME this... incorrectly.

All Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy iow the whole ancient Church have reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Right Divider]

All Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy iow the whole ancient Church have reason to believe otherwise.

What "All Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy" believe is irrelevant.

Thanks for your continued lack of sound reason.

 

[JudgeRightly]

According to this standard Mary is still alive since we have no Biblical record of her ever dying. Same goes for Peter, Paul, John etc. Even Lazarus must still be around here somewhere.

Incorrect

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9:27 - New King James Version

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

www.biblegateway.com

The exceptions being Enoch and Elijah, of course, since they were taken straight to heaven without dying, as scripture states. Even Lazarus died (again), because his body was not a glorified one.

So... If you would, please:

It is thought her body is now glorified, but it's an open question about whether she died before being assumed body and soul into Heaven, or whether her body was changed in the process of being assumed, or what. We only know she was assumed body and soul.

Show me where it says that in the Bible.

I say that because what you’re saying is contrary to the Scriptures. She will be resurrected the same as the rest of the Israelites who have faith plus works. There’s nothing to indicate otherwise.

 

[Right Divider]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the greatest joy of Catholicism is blissful ignorance. So sad.

 

[rstrats]

All Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy iow the whole ancient Church have reason to believe otherwise.

What do you have to base that reasoning on - i.e., that Mary was caught up to heaven?

 

[Idolater]

Incorrect

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9:27 - New King James Version

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

www.biblegateway.com

The exceptions being Enoch and Elijah, of course, since they were taken straight to heaven without dying, as scripture states. Even Lazarus died (again), because his body was not a glorified one.

So... If you would, please:

I already pointed out there are lots of things not mentioned in the Bible.

What are your assumptions in asking the question to show you in the Bible that Mary was assumed into Heaven at the end of her Earthly life?

 

[Idolater]

What do you have to base that reasoning on - i.e., that Mary was caught up to heaven?

It either happened or it didn't happen. If it happened, then we know it happened because somebody witnessed it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I already pointed out there are lots of things not mentioned in the Bible.

Such as Mary's assumption into heaven, for example?

What are your assumptions in asking the question to show you in the Bible that Mary was assumed into Heaven at the end of her Earthly life?

You seem to have missed the point.

You made the argument that because some people's deaths were not mentioned in the Bible, therefore Mary's death is not confirmed. You them use that as evidence (argument from silence) that she was "assumed into heaven."

That argument fails, one, because it's an argument from silence, a logical fallacy, and two, because Scripture says that all men die, and the only exceptions in Scripture are explicitly mentioned as having been taken to heaven directly.

Thus, you still need to provide support for your claim.

It either happened or it didn't happen. If it happened, then we know it happened because somebody witnessed it.

It didn't happen.

And we know it didn't happen because the Bible doesn't say she was, even though men who were arguably less important than her, at least according to your position, were stated to have been taken up into heaven, and in fact says that "all men" die once.

And before you argue "all doesn't always mean literally all" I would remind you that doing so just for Mary's case is special pleading, when I have already pointed out the exceptions.

You want us to believe that Mary just didn't need to have it stated that she was taken directly to heaven?

 

[rstrats]

You want us to believe that Mary just didn't need to have it stated that she was taken directly to heaven?

But he hasn't said - unless it was said somewhere else in the other 731 posts - exactly what his reason is for thinking that she was.

 

[Nick M]

I already pointed out there are lots of things not mentioned in the Bible.

And therefore, DNA does not exist. It isn't in the Bible. Neither is rap music or pizza.

 

[Right Divider]

And therefore, DNA does not exist. It isn't in the Bible. Neither is rap music or pizza.

Neither is Roman Catholicism...

 

[Nick M]

Same goes for Peter, Paul, John etc. Even Lazarus must still be around here somewhere.

Peter's bone box is in the hands of the Catholics. They constructed another building when it was found at the Mount of Olives. It makes perfect sense his box is there. The same with James, of which people are debating about it. Paul and Luke were both executed in prison. Paul more publicly. I don't read or speak ancient Greek. So I rely on others who think Luke was killed because his second letter to Theophilus. Some say the letter just stops. And translators added the ending.

This is Theophilus. I'm sharing the tangent since nearly all archaeological evidence for the Bible is hidden, I didn't know any of this. If the scripture contradicts it, our interpretation is wrong. Like the first century letters regarding the made up office for Bishop of Rome.

 

[Idolater]

Peter's bone box is in the hands of the Catholics. They constructed another building when it was found at the Mount of Olives. It makes perfect sense his box is there. The same with James, of which people are debating about it. Paul and Luke were both executed in prison. Paul more publicly. I don't read or speak ancient Greek. So I rely on others who think Luke was killed because his second letter to Theophilus. Some say the letter just stops. And translators added the ending.

So none of those people are in the Bible as having died. So they didn't die then. That's your argument, apply it to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
This makes the Apostle John most assuredly alive, because not only does he not died in the text, he's even said to be immortal by Jesus.

So you can't justifiably believe any of these Biblical characters are dead, based on your own words. To do so you're either just guessing, or you're depending on what was handed down through oral, word-of-mouth traditions.

This is Theophilus. I'm sharing the tangent since nearly all archaeological evidence for the Bible is hidden, I didn't know any of this. If the scripture contradicts it, our interpretation is wrong. Like the first century letters regarding the made up office for Bishop of Rome.

At least that's plausibly arguably in the Bible in Matthew 16:18-19, where Jesus tells His Apostles about the vicar of the king, in Isaiah 22:22, and He says that Peter's going to be that guy. He's going to give Peter the keys to His kingdom, and to the Apostles the power to bind and loose the consciences of the individual members of His Church, which He said He's going to build, in Matthew 16:18

He also says in another place that the office Peter will hold has one more duty imposed on it, than on the other Apostles. He is supposed to refresh his brother bishops. His brother bishops meanwhile are obligated to teach and pray. But Peter's office also has to "strengthen" his brethren /brothers, Luke 22:31-32; this duty is only imposed on Peter's unique office, not on any other.

The framework here is that there is an office ontology created by Jesus and the Apostles that's either directly described as in Matthew 16:18-19, or John 20:23 (where powers are vested and duties imposed), or which occurred outside of the text but which is required to make any sense of the text, such as 1st Timothy 3:1 where the office of a bishop already exists.

 

[Idolater]

And therefore, DNA does not exist. It isn't in the Bible. Neither is rap music or pizza.

That's your argument, not mine. I accept with full confidence things found within the Bible, and outside the Bible. Like that impurity, Onanism, consuming smut, is all gravely sinful. I accept that with full confidence, just as much as if it were right outta the Bible verbatim. I think most on TOL agree with that too, I know you do. They just don't say it that way. I say, indiscernibles are identical, principle of identity of indiscernibles. You all believe what the Catholics teach, impurity, Onanism and consuming smut are gravely sinful. Period. You all agree, and believe that, even though it's not printed in the Bible.

 

[Idolater]

Such as Mary's assumption into heaven, for example?



You seem to have missed the point.

You made the argument that because some people's deaths were not mentioned in the Bible, therefore Mary's death is not confirmed. You them use that as evidence (argument from silence) that she was "assumed into heaven."

I use that as evidence that it's possible, or not impossible. You're just assuming without evidence, that it's impossible.

That argument fails, one, because it's an argument from silence, a logical fallacy, and two, because Scripture says that all men die, and the only exceptions in Scripture are explicitly mentioned as having been taken to heaven directly.

So there are exceptions. Exceptions prove the rule, and they prove that exceptions are not impossible.

Thus, you still need to provide support for your claim.



It didn't happen.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

And we know it didn't happen because the Bible doesn't say she was, even though men who were arguably less important than her, at least according to your position, were stated to have been taken up into heaven, and in fact says that "all men" die once.

And before you argue "all doesn't always mean literally all" I would remind you that doing so just for Mary's case is special pleading, when I have already pointed out the exceptions.

Ezekiel 44:2 This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

Just because a man marries a woman doesn't mean she doesn't remain virginal.

You want us to believe that Mary just didn't need to have it stated that she was taken directly to heaven?

Speaking of things which didn't happen in the Bible, everlasting covenants being put on hold.

Whether or not the BVM was assumed body and soul into Heaven isn't the foundation of the Catholic framework, like how an everlasting covenant being put on hold is the foundation for all forms of Dispensationalism, whether it be Acts 2, Acts 9er, Acts 28; they all depend on an everlasting covenant being put on hold, and that didn't happen in the Bible.

The closest thing you have is the "falling away" of Israel, which for most people would mean when the chief priests, scribes, and all the people said to Pilate, "Crucify Him! We have no king but Caesar!" That's when most people think the falling away of Israel happened. You know when they killed their King. That would be when Israel fell away.

 

[Idolater]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the greatest joy of Catholicism is blissful ignorance. So sad.

Well we're not sad.

I guess that makes us all retarded in your eyes.

That's fine.

 

[Idolater]

Show me where it says that in the Bible.

I say that because what you’re saying is contrary to the Scriptures. She will be resurrected the same as the rest of the Israelites who have faith plus works. There’s nothing to indicate otherwise.

You must have added the second part of this post immediately after originally posting the first part, because I only responded to the first part.

If the Blessed Virgin remained virginal her whole life even though she was married to Joseph her spouse, then there is some reason to think her body has been transformed to her glorious, spiritual body 1st Corinthians 15:40-57, because all of her alleged apparitions have her as very beautiful.

It would be unimaginable for the mother of God to be very beautiful, and for St. Joseph to be married to her, and for them to be celibate their whole life together. Much more likely that, and I mean this without any offense at all, Mary was a "dog"; a frankly unattractive female. And that was part of her mortal, Earthly body, a defect, like so many of us have defects in our bodies, our glorified, transformed, spiritual bodies will have no defects, and every apparition or Our Lady has her as very beautiful.