The Importance of Believing that Jesus Atoned for the Sins of the World

[Ben Masada]

1 - My gosh you poor stubborn man! Jesus wept for you!
2 - The "bitter cup" was the coming rejection of his own people and the devastation that would fall upon the Jews in the coming ages after they broke the agreement and lost the over care of the Lord God of Israel.

3 - Hello!?!?! Ben Mazda?!?! There's a mosque built on top your temple!!!!

4 - Earth to Ben?????

1 - My gosh you poor faith-walker and disingenuous fella! Remember that Paul gave you the wrong advice when he told you to walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) By sight means to walk with understanding while it is only obvious that to walk by faith, one walks in the dark, without understanding. Open your eyes and see that Jesus cried for having become a victim of the law of cause and effect. (Luke 19:37-40)

2 - The bitter cup Jesus prayed three times asking God not to drink, was the advice he did not take from his friends the Pharisees to stop his disciples and escape arrest, and what did he do? He discarded it, and all for a few minutes of illusion as a result of the joy to be acclaimed king of the Jews in a parade in Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40)

3 - I know. I go there quite often to see that abomination of desolation. But it will not stay there forever. Soon enough it will be removed and our Temple be rebuilt on the site. The reason why it is taking so long is that we are all between "yes" and "no" for the return of the sacrifices. I am on the "no" side, according to Jer.7:22.

4 - Earth to both, Caino too!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world,

This is the only verse which says anything about the Lord Jesus being the atoning sacrifice for the sins of everyone:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 Jn.2:2).​

At 1 John 2:2 the Apostle John is making reference to the goat described as being the "sin offering" on the day of atonement (Lev.16:9), and this goat was in regard to "God's requirements." Ada R. Habershon writes:

"On the Day of Atonement there were 'two goats': the one, God's lot which was killed, the blood being taken inside the vail ; and the other, the scape-goat that bore away the iniquity of Israel to the land not inhabited--the first speaking to us of God's requirements, the second of man's need" [emphasis added] (Habershon, Study of the Types [Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1993], p.22).​

Once the goat was sacrificed to fulfill God's requirement and to satisfy the Lord the sins of no one was atoned for until, by faith, the priest took the blood of that sacrifice and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat.

Of course on the Day of Atonement the ceremony was strictly in regard to the nation of Israel. John, at 1 John 2:2, takes the imagery of the day of atonement and expands it to the whole world.

However, the death by itself benefited no one until "faith" entered the picture. Here is the way that atonement works:

The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). Therefore, when a man sins the sentence upon him is death. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro. 5: 9).

The only way that he can be "justified by blood" is to be identified with the death of the Lord Jesus:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).​

Only believers are baptized into Jesus Christ and so it is only believers whose sins are placed on the Lord Jesus and it is only those sins which are expiated at the Cross.

If your ideas are right then there would be no reason for anyone to be baptized into Christ so that his death would be the Lord Jesus' death.

 

[Robert Pate]

That's one theory, but the original gospel is the one the Jews would have taught if they accepted Jesus.

God is changeless, Eternal and Infinite. He has always been forgiving without primitive sacrifices and certainly without the murder of his innocent Son. But even in that sad hour, the rejection of his original gospel ministry, the Son's attitude was one of forgiveness towards the savage religious people whose father was the devil.

Atonement is a man made theory because man is to proud to admit his wrongs, ask for and receive loving forgiveness. Easier then to believe a theory as opposed to real personal transformation.

I now know why you don't quote scriptures.

You apparently do not believe what the bible says.

We know nothing outside of the scriptures. The apostles are the writers of the Bible and the authority, 2 Timothy 3:16.

To deny what they said is to deny the truth.

 

[Robert Pate]

This is the only verse which says anything about the Lord Jesus being the atoning sacrifice for the sins of everyone:

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 Jn.2:2).​

At 1 John 2:2 the Apostle John is making reference to the goat described as being the "sin offering" on the day of atonement (Lev.16:9), and this goat was in regard to "God's requirements." Ada R. Habershon writes:

"On the Day of Atonement there were 'two goats': the one, God's lot which was killed, the blood being taken inside the vail ; and the other, the scape-goat that bore away the iniquity of Israel to the land not inhabited--the first speaking to us of God's requirements, the second of man's need" [emphasis added] (Habershon, Study of the Types [Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1993], p.22).​

Once the goat was sacrificed to fulfill God's requirement and to satisfy the Lord the sins of no one was atoned for until, by faith, the priest took the blood of that sacrifice and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat.

Of course on the Day of Atonement the ceremony was strictly in regard to the nation of Israel. John, at 1 John 2:2, takes the imagery of the day of atonement and expands it to the whole world.

However, the death by itself benefited no one until "faith" entered the picture. Here is the way that atonement works:

The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). Therefore, when a man sins the sentence upon him is death. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro. 5: 9).

The only way that he can be "justified by blood" is to be identified with the death of the Lord Jesus:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).​

Only believers are baptized into Jesus Christ and so it is only believers whose sins are placed on the Lord Jesus and it is only those sins which are expiated at the Cross.

If your ideas are right then there would be no reason for anyone to be baptized into Christ so that his death would be the Lord Jesus' death.

If Jesus did not die for the sins of the world, then Jesus is not the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then Jesus is a fraud and should be removed from his position at the right hand of God, Hebrews 1:3.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world, then Jesus is still in Josephs new tomb and we are all still in our sins.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world, then the Bible is a lie, Colossians 2:15.

 

[Caino]

1 - My gosh you poor faith-walker and disingenuous fella! Remember that Paul gave you the wrong advice when he told you to walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) By sight means to walk with understanding while it is only obvious that to walk by faith, one walks in the dark, without understanding. Open your eyes and see that Jesus cried for having become a victim of the law of cause and effect. (Luke 19:37-40)

2 - The bitter cup Jesus prayed three times asking God not to drink, was the advice he did not take from his friends the Pharisees to stop his disciples and escape arrest, and what did he do? He discarded it, and all for a few minutes of illusion as a result of the joy to be acclaimed king of the Jews in a parade in Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40)

3 - I know. I go there quite often to see that abomination of desolation. But it will not stay there forever. Soon enough it will be removed and our Temple be rebuilt on the site. The reason why it is taking so long is that we are all between "yes" and "no" for the return of the sacrifices. I am on the "no" side, according to Jer.7:22.

4 - Earth to both, Caino too!

Deuteronomy 28 speaks to what has actually happened.

Jeremiah 26

Warning to the Cities of Judah


…4"And you will say to them, 'Thus says the LORD, "If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5to listen to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I have been sending to you again and again, but you have not listened; 6then I will make this house like Shiloh, and this city I will make a curse to all the nations of the earth."'"
​

 

[aikido7]

Jesus was a Jew who followed the ancient tradition of "mercy, not sacrifice." The prayers he taught to his disciples specifically says that we should come before God the merciful with repentance and a contrite heart to work out our human foibles with our brothers and sisters.

I have said this before: the expression of the complete theology of blood atonement was worked out by Anselm of Canterbury around the year 900.
And Jesus saved many long before he turned his head to that final journey to Jerusalem and Calvary.

In fact, Jesus' message was to the House of Israel, not to us Gentiles. It took Paul's mission "to the nations" to remedy that oversight.

Jesus did not care much for Gentiles and called us "dogs" and mocked their praying style.

It is indeed ironic that he has become an idol to be worshiped by Gentiles who have defined him as a blood sacrifice for humankind's sin--something Jesus never envisioned and would be disgusted by the whole idea.

 

[aikido7]

If Jesus did not die for the sins of the world, then Jesus is not the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then Jesus is a fraud and should be removed from his position at the right hand of God, Hebrews 1:3.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world, then Jesus is still in Josephs new tomb and we are all still in our sins.

If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world, then the Bible is a lie, Colossians 2:15.

Rather than cite words and opinions and theologies ABOUT Jesus, find the words OF Jesus.

You will find a very different framework for personal belief.

Jesus did not intend to die for the sins of humankind. He most certainly knew his mission would not end well--because of what happened to his mentor John the Baptizer--but it took the later Christians to put the sacrificial metaphor onto the crucifixion.

Remember, the gospel accounts were written after Jesus' death--at least the consensus of historians has found.

 

[Robert Pate]

Rather than cite words and opinions and theologies ABOUT Jesus, find the words OF Jesus.

You will find a very different framework for personal belief.

Jesus did not intend to die for the sins of humankind. He most certainly knew his mission would not end well--because of what happened to his mentor John the Baptizer--but it took the later Christians to put the sacrificial metaphor onto the crucifixion.

Remember, the gospel accounts were written after Jesus' death--at least the consensus of historians has found.

You never cite any scripture.

Where do you get your ideas from? You are not getting them from the Bible.

Jesus mission did end well. He was accepted into heaven and was made both Lord and Christ, Acts 2:36.

You sound more like an unbeliever than a believer.

 

[Ben Masada]

Deuteronomy 28 speaks to what has actually happened.

Jeremiah 26 Warning to the Cities of Judah

…4"And you will say to them, 'Thus says the LORD, "If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5to listen to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I have been sending to you again and again, but you have not listened; 6then I will make this house like Shiloh, and this city I will make a curse to all the nations of the earth."'"

To make of this house like Shiloh is a reference to Israel aka the Ten Tribes. The difference is that Shiloh-like-Israel was forever and Jerusalem of Judah would be for 70 years. What is the point? I see no connection with my post #201.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Do you have a concordance? Look up the word "Impute" "Imputed" "Imputeth" "Imputing".

IMPUTE: 1, To attribute (a fault, crime,etc.) to a person; charge.

God not only imputes sin, he also imputes righteousness, Romans 4:22.

In the judgment if you are not found to be "In Christ" your sins will be imputed to you and you will be condemned. That is the purpose of the judgment.

This is why the scripture says... "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Romans 4:8.

Fair enough.

Habakkuk 1:11
11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.
2 Corinthians 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Leviticus 7:18
18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 17:4
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
Romans 4:11
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Romans 4:22
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:23
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Romans 4:24
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
James 2:23
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

I do not see any reference to sin being imputed back to anyone. If we use your standard of it does not count if it is only mentioned four times in Scripture, it would appear that your "imputed back" theology is just man-made drivel, totally unsupported by Scripture.

 

[aikido7]

You never cite any scripture.

Where do you get your ideas from? You are not getting them from the Bible.

You read my posts with inattention and to confirm your own prejudices.

Jesus mission did end well.

Messiahs were NOT supposed to die. So his followers turned the scandal into victory.

He was accepted into heaven and was made both Lord and Christ, Acts 2:36.

The Book of Acts is not completely historical.

You sound more like an unbeliever than a believer.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can't blame you for your opinion. History DOES inform faith and Christianity, like Islam, needs to develop a new theology more in line with the interconnected global existence we all live in today. Repeating ancient dogmatic formulations just isn't going to do it any more.

 

[Robert Pate]

You read my posts with inattention and to confirm your own prejudices.

Messiahs were NOT supposed to die. So his followers turned the scandal into victory.

The Book of Acts is not completely historical.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I can't blame you for your opinion. History DOES inform faith and Christianity, like Islam, needs to develop a new theology more in line with the interconnected global existence we all live in today. Repeating ancient dogmatic formulations just isn't going to do it any more.

You need to change the description on your mast head from Christian to unbeliever.