ECT The historical false teaching about the sins of a believer

heir

TOL Subscriber
Your sensibilities are wanting. You have to be child. In any event I can't follow your reasoning and your inability to connect the dots.
Your inability to undestand spiritual things is natural, man (1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV).
You have no idea what the "mystery" is and yet proclaim it to be something exclusively to Paul.
Yes, I do and it's this (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)
That's nonsense.
Nope, it's sound doctrine 1 Corinthians 9:17 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV, 1 Timothy 1:13-16 KJV).
That is enough for me to make my exit.
And so Paul writes...Galatians 4:17 KJV, 2 Timothy 4:4 KJV.


As for me 1 Timothy 4:16 KJV, 2 Timothy 4:5 KJV
 

journey

New member
Your sensibilities are wanting. You have to be child. In any event I can't follow your reasoning and your inability to connect the dots. You have no idea what the "mystery" is and yet proclaim it to be something exclusively to Paul. That's nonsense. That is enough for me to make my exit.

Good - nobody needs your false teaching.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Thankfully, Salvation is NOT on the installment payment plan. Jesus Christ has already paid it all on the Cross.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Some of the posters in this thread don't have a clue. They are mixing the Gospel of the Kingdom with the Gospel of the Grace of God, so they are terribly confused. Sadly, they don't understand what I just said.

When Christ said "it is finished" it meant He had accomplished everything necessary to save us however we have to receive the benefits of His work and we have to walk in what He provided. Salvation begins when we take the first step of faith. It continues as we walk by faith and it will be completed only when finish the course.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

A. the gospel I preached
This one word (evangelisamen) is in the aorist (or simple past tense). Paul says he proclaimed the gospel to them at some point in the past

B. which you received
This too is an historic event. They received Paul’s message at a particular time in the past.

C. in which you stand
The Apostle says that they began to stand (in the truth of the gospel) in the past and that they continue to do so in the present (the perfect tense)

D. by which you are being saved
This word “being saved” (sozesthe) is in the passive voice meaning that a work of salvation (or deliverance) was opreating in them (by the work of the Holy Spirit).

E. being saved
This same word “being saved” (sozesthe) is in the present tense indicating that the work of salvation and deliverance is an ongoing process.

F. IF you hold fast to the word I preached to you
The conjunction “if” introduces a condition. In order for the ongoing work of salvation to reach completion we must “hold fast to the word of salvation.”

The word “hold fast” (katechete) is in the present tense indicating an action that is ongoing and continuous. It is not enough that we “laid hold” of the truth of salvation in the past we must CONTINUE to do so in the present.

G. Unless (or if not) you believed in vain
The word episteusate means to “believe upon.” The fact that it is in the simple past tense (aorist) signifies that it is referring to that particular time in the past Paul alluded to already when the Colossians first believed upon Jesus. Paul is saying THAT experience would be for nothing if they did not continue in the faith.

Thayer’s Greek Lexicon says that in this verse the Greek word translated “in vain” means “without success or effect.” So if we refuse to “hold fast” to the word of salvation it will not achieve its intended effect of bringing us into the final eternal life.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1500.htm

If salvation were unconditional and eternally set from the moment a person first believes then the Colossians could never under any circumstances have "believed in vain," for then, even if they at some point rejected the faith eternal salvation would belong to them in the end. This verse shows that salvation depends on our not only our beginning to believe but in our continuing to do so until the end. This is exactly the same thing Jesus' taught when He said we must continue to abide in Him (John 15:6). The fact that Paul and Jesus are saying exactly the same thing contradicts the notion that Paul preached an different “gospel” of antinomian“free grace.”
 

Shasta

Well-known member
The word of God is already rightly divided.

No, "dividing the word" is something the "workman" does when he reads and studies the Bible.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)
 
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journey

New member
Shasta,

You have confused not being saved in the first place with keeping your Salvation. IF you don't believe that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for your sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day - there is no Salvation for you.

1Co 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Shasta,

You have confused not being saved in the first place with keeping your Salvation. IF you don't believe that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for your sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day - there is no Salvation for you.

1Co 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This verse is NOT about people who were never really saved. Paul says that:

(1) he had preached the gospel to the Corinthians in the past,
(2) they had received it and
(3) that they had been standing in it ever since.
(4) Furthermore he says that they were "being saved" by it

" Being saved" is the proper translation of the Greek word sōzesthe which is a present tense active verb, indicating ongoing progressive activity rather than a static state.

See this for yourself on this site:

http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-2.htm

(5) In the same breath and to this same group Paul uses the conjunction IF which introduces the idea that their status as actively saved people was CONDITIONED upon their holding fast to the gospel message they had already received and believed.

The KJV has a rather weak translation of this verse or it least it comes across that way in modern English:

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you

The Greek word for "the highlighted phrase is katecho. It does not literally mean "remember." There is a different word for that. Instead katecho means to "hold fast." As I showed in my last post, both
Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Strong's Concordance define this word as "hold fast"

Strong's Concordance: 2722. katechó
to hold fast

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

to hold fast, keep secure,
(http://biblehub.com/greek/2722.htm)

The modern translations reflect this.

New International Version
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

New Living Translation
It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you--unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.

English Standard Version
and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Berean Study Bible
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Berean Literal Bible
by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I proclaimed to you; otherwise you have believed in vain.

New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you--unless you believed for no purpose.

International Standard Version
and by which you are also being saved if you hold firmly to the message I proclaimed to you—unless, of course, your faith was worthless.

NET Bible
and by which you are being saved,] if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

Paul is saying that the Colossians would continue to walk in salvation IF they held fast to the word of salvation he had originally proclaimed to them. This indicates that if they turned from the truth they would also be turning from salvation. I do not know how else this verse could be translated without subverting the grammar and ordinary sense of the words. It is not our place to try to insert our presuppositions into a text but to first try and read it as it is written.

The King James Bible which you are using says

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

I suspect that the KJV translators had a somewhat stronger idea of what it meant to "keep something in memory" than just to recall an event because they translated the same word katecho as"hold fast" in other verses:

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end (Hebrews 3:6).

(Notice the similarity of this verse to 1 Corinthians 15:2.)

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

http://biblehub.com/greek/2722.htm
 
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Cross Reference

New member
This verse is NOT about people who were never really saved. Paul says that:

(1) he had preached the gospel to the Colossians in the past,
(2) they had received it and
(3) that they had been standing in it ever since.
(4) Furthermore he says that they were "being saved" by it

" Being saved" is the proper translation of the Greek word sōzesthe which is a present tense active verb, indicating ongoing progressive activity rather than a static state.

See this for yourself on this site:

http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-2.htm

(5) In the same breath and to this same group Paul uses the conjunction IF which introduces the idea that their status as actively saved people was CONDITIONED upon their holding fast to the gospel message they had already received and believed.

The KJV has a rather weak translation of this verse or it least it comes across that way in modern English:

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you

The Greek word for "the highlighted phrase is katecho. It does not literally mean "remember." There is a different word for that. Instead katecho means to "hold fast." As I showed in my last post, both
Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Strong's Concordance define this word as "hold fast"



The modern translations reflect this.

New International Version
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

New Living Translation
It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you--unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.

English Standard Version
and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Berean Study Bible
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Berean Literal Bible
by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I proclaimed to you; otherwise you have believed in vain.

New American Standard Bible
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you--unless you believed for no purpose.

International Standard Version
and by which you are also being saved if you hold firmly to the message I proclaimed to you—unless, of course, your faith was worthless.

NET Bible
and by which you are being saved,] if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

Paul is saying that the Colossians would continue to walk in salvation IF they held fast to the word of salvation he had originally proclaimed to them. This indicates that if they turned from the truth they would also be turning from salvation. I do not know how else this verse could be translated without subverting the grammar and ordinary sense of the words. It is not our place to try to insert our presuppositions into a text but to first try and read it as it is written.

The King James Bible which you are using says

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

I suspect that the KJV translators had a somewhat stronger idea of what it meant to "keep something in memory" than just to recall an event because they translated the same word katecho as"hold fast" in other verses:

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end (Hebrews 3:6).

(Notice the similarity of this verse to 1 Corinthians 15:2.)

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

http://biblehub.com/greek/2722.htm

Can't be more clear than that.
 

False Prophet

New member
[5]he purpose of this command is for people to have love, a love that comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a true faith. 1 tim
Jesus is coming back for a church without spot, blemish, or wrinkle Eph 5:27 Like the holy one we are to be holy in all, all, all of our conduct. Whosoever teaches a doctrine that does not conform us to godliness and is contrary to the words of Jesus Christ is conceited, blind, and knowing nothing.
4 The person who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sin is living against God’s law. 5 You know that Christ came to take away sins and that there is no sin in Christ. 6 So anyone who lives in Christ does not go on sinning. Anyone who goes on sinning has never really understood Christ and has never known him. 1john5
 

Cross Reference

New member
[5]he purpose of this command is for people to have love, a love that comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a true faith. 1 tim
Jesus is coming back for a church without spot, blemish, or wrinkle Eph 5:27 Like the holy one we are to be holy in all, all, all of our conduct. Whosoever teaches a doctrine that does not conform us to godliness and is contrary to the words of Jesus Christ is conceited, blind, and knowing nothing.
4 The person who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sin is living against God’s law. 5 You know that Christ came to take away sins and that there is no sin in Christ. 6 So anyone who lives in Christ does not go on sinning. Anyone who goes on sinning has never really understood Christ and has never known him. 1john5

Amen!
 
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