The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Kevin]

Freak,

Jesus + water= salvation or Jesus + water + obedience = salvation

Let me help you with this equation. It's Faith in Jesus + obedience to the end of life = salvation.

1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

According to verse 4, can one who does NOT obey Christ by keeping His commandments make it to heaven? Simple yes or no question. Will you dare to answer?

He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household

But this is not a dead belief on itself. This had been proven by the question that servantofChrist asked you, and you refuse to answer to this day:

From servantofChrist:

"If your words are correct, that all one has to do is "turn from self to Christ," then why did the Holy Spirit tell the multitude of Jews in Acts 2 to "Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins," instead of telling them to "turn from themselves to Christ" or, to "have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because you are saved by grace through faith."?"

Where's your answer, Freak?

From Apollos:

"Why the hydrophobia?? I have asked you twice now – and I will ask a third time…

Can Jesus HEAL with water ???
If so, can Jesus save with water ??"

Where's your answer, Freak?

If you are in search of the truth, you would not continually dodge easy qeustions like these. Sad.

 

[Kevin]

Oooops. A couple of left out words were in my original post. The above is the correct one.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Francisco
That's not my formula at all Jay. It looks more like this:

Grace + Faith + Repentence + Carry Cross/Follow Christ + Endure to the End = Eternal Salvation

Your formula looks like:

Belief in Christ + Ignore/Disobey Commands + Ignoring Some Scripture x Disbelief God Can Use Substances He Created = Salvation According to a Few Misinterpretted Verses

God Bless,

Francisco

I believe, as the Scriptures point out:

Belief in Christ=Salvation

After salvation comes santification---conforming to the person of the Lord Jesus.

The cultic formula looks like this:

Grace + Faith + Repentence + Works+ Carry Cross/Follow Christ + Endure to the End = Eternal Salvation

or like this:

Jesus + water= salvation or Jesus + water + obedience = salvation

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin
Where's your answer, Freak?

From Apollos:

"Why the hydrophobia?? I have asked you twice now – and I will ask a third time…

Can Jesus HEAL with water ???
If so, can Jesus save with water ??"

Where's your answer, Freak?

If you are in search of the truth, you would not continually dodge easy qeustions like these. Sad.

The answer is just Jesus!

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

Kevin, set your eyes not on the water but on Jesus!

 

[c.moore]

Kevin

Wrong. Show me one verse where the verb used to denote HOW on get into Christ is "repentance". I've shown you two verses that show that baptism is HOW we become in Christ:

1Jo:4:12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Jo:4:13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

.1Jo:4:15: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him

This makes it quite clear that we must die with Him in order to live with Him. To live with Christ is to be saved. I've already shown, from the Bible, how we die with Christ - Baptism. Show me another Biblical passage that speaks of any other method by which we die with Christ. Take the challenge.

See this is why I posted the last teaching about the grace, because we are saved by grace not a baptism, and we are alive in Jesus, so we go from being dead in the flesh to alive in the spirit.

Eph:2:1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph:2:2: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph:2:3: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph:2:4: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph:2:6: And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph:2:7: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph:2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph:2:13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph:5:8: For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph:5:9: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph:5:10: Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Ro:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro:5:10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Ro:5:11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Ro:8:8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Ro:8:9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro:8:10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro:8:11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro:8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Please study these scriptures and see what make us children of God , and righteous with God, and saved.

be blessed

 

[Francisco]

The gospel according to Jay and c.moore:

'Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. But let us close our ears to everything he told us to DO, because we only have to believe He said those things, but we don't really need to DO them.'

 

[servantofChrist]

KEVIN and FRANCISCO... Thank you for your kind words and your compliments. Praise be to the LORD Jesus Christ who has given us His truth and has also enabled EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US to "KNOW the truth" He has given to all (John 8:32).

 

[Kevin]

Right on the money....

Right on the money....

Francisco,

The gospel according to Jay and c.moore:

'Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. But let us close our ears to everything he told us to DO, because we only have to believe He said those things, but we don't really need to DO them.'

Amen and AMEN! :up:

 

[servantofChrist]

Hi Freak!


You said that all Paul told the Philippian jailor to do to be saved was simply "believe" in Christ, no baptism... "And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household' " (Acts 16:31).

Now, will you PLEASE watch this, Freak. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm very serious... PLEASE watch this:

The command that Paul gave to the jailor to "Believe" is in the future tense, indicating action that has NOT YET BEEN TAKEN. This command given in the future tense is seen in v. 31.

But look 4 verses after that at v. 34; it says at the end of that verse, "he had believed in God." The "he" that is spoken of there is the jailor... "had believed" is the past perfect tense of "Believe," and indicates ACTION HAVING BEEN COMPLETED! That's what the past perfect tense indicates - action THAT HAS BEEN COMPLETED.

So you have the jailor being given the command to "Believe," something he had not yet done. Then, in v. 34 the Holy Spirit declares that he had completed doing what Paul commanded him to do in the first place - "Believe" [in Christ].

Now, look at what all took place between the time he was commanded to "Believe" and when it was declared that he "had believed":

After he was commanded to "Believe," the apostles
(1) "spoke the word of the Lord to him," then
(2) "he [the jailor] took them [Paul and Silas] the same hour of the night and washed their wounds" (this shows repentance on the part of the jailor), then
(3) "he [the jailor] WAS BAPTIZED at once, he and all his family," then
(4) "he [the jailor] brought them [Paul and Silas] up to his house and set food before them (the jailor continued to DEMONSTRATE his faith by doing good WORKS/DEEDS to these apostles of Christ)... AND AFTER ALL OF THESE THINGS HAD BEEN DONE BY THE JAILOR - THEN - THE HOLY SPIRIT DECLARED THAT THE JAILOR "HAD BELIEVED IN GOD." !!!!

Now, please answer this question, Freak: Did the Holy Spirit declare that the jailor "had believed" in God ("the Lord Jesus") before he was baptized or after his baptism?

I await your answer!

 

[servantofChrist]

Hi "c.moore,"

I hope you don't mind if I respond to one of the points you made. You cited 1 John 4:16, which says, "So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him."

Notice the part that says, "whoever abides [or 'dwelleth'] in love abides in God, and God abides in him."

What does it mean to "abide in love"? 2 John verse 6 says, "And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments." To "abide" in love, therefore, means to "abide in his commandments."

And one of those commandments is to "be baptized" (Acts 2:38; 10:48; 22:16).

Just an observation, that's all.

 

[Kevin]

Try again...

Try again...

c.moore,

1Jo:4:12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Jo:4:13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

.1Jo:4:15: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

I still don't see that we "confess into Christ", or "repent into Christ". Sure whoever confesses Jesus, God dwells in that person, but that's not what put's us "into Christ". We have an instance of Paul confessing Christ:

Act 22:16
And now what do you intend? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

What do you think put Paul "into Christ"? Do you think that if Paul just confessed Christ (calling on the name of the Lord), and didn't get baptized - ignoring an explicit command from the Lord - that he would have been in Christ? I've got verses that show that baptism is the verb used to denote how one get's into Christ - and Paul was indeed baptized. What, is there more than one way to get "into Christ"? Nope. The Bible speaks that there is one faith and one gospel. Christ didn't give multiple options for us to choose from on how we get into Him. That's why you will only see "baptized into Christ", because that's how we get into Christ. You wan't to say there are two other ways! Nope. There's only ONE way.

Again, as 2 Tim. 2:11 says:

11) For faithful is the Word, for if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.

This verse shows a condition. It says IF we die with Christ, we will also live with him. This shows the necessity of first dying with Christ before we can live with Him. That's the whole concept of being reborn, which is required of salvation - to die to sin and become alive to God. So, until you die with Christ, you are not "in Christ". How do we die with Christ according to the Bible? How? I'll tell you one thing... it's not by confessing or believing. This is relates to the simple challenge that I asked you take, and you never touched it:

Romans 6:3-4
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through BAPTISM into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

There is but ONE way to die with Christ, and I even took the liberty of underlining it: BAPTISM. That's how we die with Christ.

So, if we die with Christ, we will live with Him (2 Tim. 2:11), and thus will be "in Christ". I've shown that baptism is how we die with Christ from the Bible. We die with Him through baptism that so we can LIVE with Him. Baptism is how we get into Christ (Romans 6:3, Gal. 3:27), becuase that's how we die with Christ, and a death must occur before one can be reborn, and again, we MUST die with Him that we may live with Him (2 Tim 2:11).

So, again, the challenge is for you to show me any other Biblical method (besides baptism) that we die with Christ. You won't find "confessing" or "believing" anywhere when it comes to dying with Christ. If we don't die with Him, we won't live with Him. Simple as that.

If confession or belief is what puts us "into Christ", then why didn't Peter in Acts 2, when the Jews were asking how to be saved, why didn't Peter tell them - "Confess Christ and you will be saved." or "believe in Him and you will be saved"? We both know that Peter said something entirely different - "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

We are "BAPTIZED into Christ" according to the word of God. There's only one way... not two or three.

Galatians 3:27
27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This clearly defines WHO is in Christ - as many of us as were baptized.

See this is why I posted the last teaching about the grace, because we are saved by grace not a baptism

I already know we are saved by the grace of God. For if God didn't send His Son do die for us, that we may have salvation, baptism wouldn't do any good for anybody. But God did send His Son by His grace, giving us an avenue for salvation, when there is nothing that we could have ever done to earn that.

When God sent His Son, God said:

Mat 17:5
5) While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And behold a voice out of the cloud which said, This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, HEAR HIM.

Hear Christ, C.Moore. Christ commanded baptism of all nations (Matt 28:19-20), which is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), dying with Him (Rom. 6:4), that we may live with Him (2 Tim. 2:11)! Hear Him!

God's grace will not do anybody any good unless you Hear His Son. But if you hear what He says, and do NOT obey Him, the truth is NOT in you, and you are not in Christ (1 John 2:3-6).

and we are alive in Jesus, so we go from being dead in the flesh to alive in the spirit.

That's right, but how, according to the Bible, do we die to the flesh?

Eph:2:1: And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

I agree with Paul. And how does Paul say that we are freed from sin, no longer being dead in trespass and sins? Right here:

Romans 6:7
7) For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Once again, we die with Christ through baptism:

Romans 6: 4
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through BAPTISM into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[Francisco]

Kevin, s-o-C, Apollos,

Are you getting as bored as I am? It seems we have a mountain of evidence on our side, and all they can say is 'water doesn't save'. They say 'all we have to do is believe' and ignore the commands of the one we are supposed to believe in. And they can show no evidence, scriptural or otherwise, where anyone said we should ignore what Jesus commanded, or Jesus' teachings don't count any more.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Kevin]

Francisco,

Are you getting as bored as I am? It seems we have a mountain of evidence on our side, and all they can say is 'water doesn't save'. They say 'all we have to do is believe' and ignore the commands of the one we are supposed to believe in. And they can show no evidence, scriptural or otherwise, where anyone said we should ignore what Jesus commanded, or Jesus' teachings don't count any more.

Yeah, we are spinning our wheels here because they are replying to us, but not answering us. That's why this thread is so long. They really have no choice but to ignore our questions and such, because if they truly answered them, they would be admitting error.

That's why Freak has not answered several times, because he can't without exposing his error.

C.Moore tries to answer some points and questions, but leaves others untouched.

It's amazing how confusing Mark 16:16 is to some people. When somebody has to resort to looking for the requirements of salvation in the part of the verse that speaks of condemnation, you know something is wrong with their theological beliefs. They have to ignore the part of the verse that DOES speak on the requirements of salvation - belief and baptism. Mark 16:16 is so clear, yet those who don't have ears will not hear it. It's a shame.

 

[servantofChrist]

Francisco,


I agree... it staggers the mind to think of how many commands and instructions are contained in the New Testament, and "the other guys" think that all you have to obey to get to heaven is just one of them - "believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

How convenient! I don't have to repent of any of my sins, and not only that, I can keep on sinning if resisting temptation becomes too difficult for me. It won't matter because all I have to do is just "believe" in the Lord Jesus and my salvation is a "done deal!"

 

[Francisco]

And it all stems from that one little word Luther wanted to add to Romans...

 

[servantofChrist]

I had a lengthy discussion many years ago with a young guy who was going through theological school to become an "ordained minister."

We discussed for hours the subject of baptism. And no matter how many times I showed him how PLAINLY the scriptures taught that baptism is an essential part of God's plan for man's salvation, he would resort to some argument he was being taught in his theological training to try to show me that it was not.

Finally, I gave up and I said, you know, Jesus Christ said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved," but you have to go through 4 years of theological school for them to try to show you that Mk. 16:16 doesn't really mean what it says! That is what it all really boils down to - that Jesus made a mistake when he said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." That what he really meant to say, but messed up and didn't say, was, "He who has believed shall be saved, and then be baptized if he so desires."

Can anyone believe it?!!!

 

[servantofChrist]

Mk. 16:16


JESUS CHRIST Puts The Order This Way:

1. Believe 2. Baptized 3. Saved


"Freak" And Others Put The Order This Way:

1. Believe 2. Save 3. Baptized


Question: Whose Order Is Correct?!

 

[servantofChrist]

Francisco,


I'm sorry, but I must confess, you got me on that one! What is that "one word" that Luther wanted to add to Romans?

 

[Francisco]

ALONE

Understand, I'm not blaming Luther for the strange beliefs of Freak and Co. But I do think the faith alone doctrine is at the roots of these other wierd beliefs.

 

[Francisco]

s-o-C,

In regard to the orders you listed above, you need to add one more, because there are those who don't believe in baptism even after they're saved:

1. Believe 2. Saved