The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
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Freak
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Water Lovers, allow God's Word formulate your doctrine on salvation.
The apostle John tells us:
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
Receive Christ and you are given the right to become a child of God. No mention of water. The burden of proof lies with you guys to prove otherwise.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Belief in Christ gives you eternal life not water.
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life
Again belief is what's required for eternal life not water.
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
Words from Jesus speak clarity.
Now, what prevents you from eternal life? It's not because one has failed to get into some water. Jesus says:
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.
The apostle Paul declared quite clearly that water would not save you:
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
It was the Gospel--which is attained by faith.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
What part of God's Word do you fail to understand:
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
To all who are water baptized? Nope! But to all who believe.
The apostle John tells us:
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
Receive Christ and you are given the right to become a child of God. No mention of water. The burden of proof lies with you guys to prove otherwise.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Belief in Christ gives you eternal life not water.
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life
Again belief is what's required for eternal life not water.
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
Words from Jesus speak clarity.
Now, what prevents you from eternal life? It's not because one has failed to get into some water. Jesus says:
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.
The apostle Paul declared quite clearly that water would not save you:
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
It was the Gospel--which is attained by faith.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
What part of God's Word do you fail to understand:
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
To all who are water baptized? Nope! But to all who believe.
Paradõsis
New member
I think it's sorta funny the way some people (ie. Freak) take verses out of context in the most absurd way, and then have the nerve to claim that others must respond with a coherent counter-argument.
It'd be like someone quoting the verse that talks about "acknowleding Jesus with our lips," and claiming that this means that mute people can't be saved, and then telling us to prove them wrong. Then, every argument that is brought forward showing other places in Scripture that refute the position is rejected because according to the verse, we must acknowledge Jesus with our lips to be saved.
Rather than taking what the entire Bible says, they pick out one verse and pretend like it speaks of everything that deals with salvation. Nevermind that confessing truth, holding to correct doctrine, doing good deeds, enduring trials, and a bunch of other stuff are also said to lead to salvation: as long as the person can blindly flail around their proof text and feel safe and snug and cozy in their position, they won't budge.
What I've never understood is why Catholics/Orthodox get involved in Baptism debates to begin with. You have different foundational views! E.g., you can't agree on whether salvation is a process or not, you can't agree whether justification and sanctification should be sharply divided, some of the participants here don't even acknolwedge the full divinity or full humanity of Christ (making all discussions on salvation, including baptism, utterly useless.... ever read anything from the christological controversies?). What makes you think that you could ever convince the other side of your views of baptism? It's better to just offer your view and move on (like I'm about to do
). Then it wouldn't get to 167 pages of talk with no substantial results (you'd say your piece and let God do the rest). You could have laid everything out plainly in a couple posts and been done with it. How many lurkers do you know who are going to read through 167 pages of posts?
It'd be like someone quoting the verse that talks about "acknowleding Jesus with our lips," and claiming that this means that mute people can't be saved, and then telling us to prove them wrong. Then, every argument that is brought forward showing other places in Scripture that refute the position is rejected because according to the verse, we must acknowledge Jesus with our lips to be saved.
Rather than taking what the entire Bible says, they pick out one verse and pretend like it speaks of everything that deals with salvation. Nevermind that confessing truth, holding to correct doctrine, doing good deeds, enduring trials, and a bunch of other stuff are also said to lead to salvation: as long as the person can blindly flail around their proof text and feel safe and snug and cozy in their position, they won't budge.
What I've never understood is why Catholics/Orthodox get involved in Baptism debates to begin with. You have different foundational views! E.g., you can't agree on whether salvation is a process or not, you can't agree whether justification and sanctification should be sharply divided, some of the participants here don't even acknolwedge the full divinity or full humanity of Christ (making all discussions on salvation, including baptism, utterly useless.... ever read anything from the christological controversies?). What makes you think that you could ever convince the other side of your views of baptism? It's better to just offer your view and move on (like I'm about to do
). Then it wouldn't get to 167 pages of talk with no substantial results (you'd say your piece and let God do the rest). You could have laid everything out plainly in a couple posts and been done with it. How many lurkers do you know who are going to read through 167 pages of posts?
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c.moore
New member
No,:nono: you got it completly wrong Francisco, we do believe and repent and ask the blood to wash us, but the reason we do what we are told, and obey is because we want to do this for showing our love to Jesus, but not to add our obedience to getting to heaven or getting salvation.
We do God`s will in our christian walk after we are born again,saved,and have salvation.
So it goes like this.
believe(faith ,blood of Jesus)+relationship= salvation, and eternal life.
Then after all this it goes
getting washed in the Word of God,learning +obedience (baptism,helps,witnessing,good works,religious works like going to church,bible schools,etc= the christian walk,or following Jesus,also showing your fruits to others you are saved.
peace
c.moore,
'And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.'
Do you think those who don't follow Christ and aren't worthy of Him are going to enter heaven? Or will they be these people:
‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)
No, :nono: following His commands are not optional c.moore.
God Bless,
Francisco
Obeying Jesus and showing him our love is not optional. If we fail to bear our cross and follow Him (that means to act the way He told us to) we are not worthy of Him:
'And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.'
Do you think those who don't follow Christ and aren't worthy of Him are going to enter heaven? Or will they be these people:
‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)
No, :nono: following His commands are not optional c.moore.
God Bless,
Francisco
c.moore
New member
Didn`t you read my post above?:doh:
if we really love Him we will want to serve Him out of love back to Him.
We are not in some marine army , and we have to take commandment to get to the next rank, that not about love,or wanting to obey because of pleasing somebody with our heart.
So this is the difference that you believe.
I believe in the good news of love, and your new is the gospel of hoping to take all the commandment and obey them, and do all you can under Holy orders.
it like for me loving my wife I love my wife so I do for her what I can without her telling me what to do , and how to do,and sense I know her and have a personal relationship I know what pleases hjer without commandments, like bring flopwers, giving kisses on commando,holding her hand when somebody tell me too, go for walk when it is placed on the appointment book, and so on.:nono:
I do these good things and please my wife by guidance of knowing her, and the same is with the LOrd, when I do I do because I know what please Jesus my Daddy , and I love Him not what he can give me , but loving HIm is kissing HIM with obedience because He is my Abba Father, not because of commandments, or legalism works, and laws.
that why the bible say be led by the Spirit so we can be sons and daughter, not slaves like you want to be.
peace
Freak
New member
Originally posted by Paradõsis
I think it's sorta funny the way some people (ie. Freak) take verses out of context in the most absurd way, and then have the nerve to claim that others must respond with a coherent counter-argument.
It'd be like someone quoting the verse that talks about "acknowleding Jesus with our lips," and claiming that this means that mute people can't be saved, and then telling us to prove them wrong. Then, every argument that is brought forward showing other places in Scripture that refute the position is rejected because according to the verse, we must acknowledge Jesus with our lips to be saved.
Rather than taking what the entire Bible says, they pick out one verse and pretend like it speaks of everything that deals with salvation. Nevermind that confessing truth, holding to correct doctrine, doing good deeds, enduring trials, and a bunch of other stuff are also said to lead to salvation: as long as the person can blindly flail around their proof text and feel safe and snug and cozy in their position, they won't budge.
What I've never understood is why Catholics/Orthodox get involved in Baptism debates to begin with. You have different foundational views! E.g., you can't agree on whether salvation is a process or not, you can't agree whether justification and sanctification should be sharply divided, some of the participants here don't even acknolwedge the full divinity or full humanity of Christ (making all discussions on salvation, including baptism, utterly useless.... ever read anything from the christological controversies?). What makes you think that you could ever convince the other side of your views of baptism? It's better to just offer your view and move on (like I'm about to do
My friend--
How one is saved is as foundational as who God is. The doctrine of justification by faith must be focused on as it is an important doctrine of orthodox Christianity.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
God's Word is as clear as it can get: This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Note: No water but righteousness comes through faith to all who believe.
and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
God justifies those who have faith (not water baptism) but faith in Jesus.
Stopping focusing on water and simply focus on Jesus.
Jay,
You continually focus on one aspect of Jesus, that being our initial call to faith.
We need to continue to focus on Jesus and follow everything He told us, including baptism.
In the course of his dialogue with Nicodemus he said these words:
'Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'.
Then, immediately following his discourse with Nicodemus, what does Jesus and the disciples do?
'After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea where he spent some time with them baptizing.'
It couldn't be much clearer Jay. Jesus said we must be baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven. Leter he commanded the apostles to make disciples of all nations and baptize them. Immediately following Christ's ascension to heaven and the arrival of the Paraclete at Pentecost, what was the result of the first Christian gospel preached? The crowd is cut to the heart and asks Peter what they should do, and he says:
'Repent, and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'
It just can't be any clearer when you look at scripture in context. When you look at one verse out of context it can have several possible meanings. It just doesn't work.
God Bless,
Francisco
You continually focus on one aspect of Jesus, that being our initial call to faith.
We need to continue to focus on Jesus and follow everything He told us, including baptism.
In the course of his dialogue with Nicodemus he said these words:
'Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'.
Then, immediately following his discourse with Nicodemus, what does Jesus and the disciples do?
'After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea where he spent some time with them baptizing.'
It couldn't be much clearer Jay. Jesus said we must be baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven. Leter he commanded the apostles to make disciples of all nations and baptize them. Immediately following Christ's ascension to heaven and the arrival of the Paraclete at Pentecost, what was the result of the first Christian gospel preached? The crowd is cut to the heart and asks Peter what they should do, and he says:
'Repent, and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'
It just can't be any clearer when you look at scripture in context. When you look at one verse out of context it can have several possible meanings. It just doesn't work.
God Bless,
Francisco
Freak
New member
My good friend listen to me--
You said: You continually focus on one aspect of Jesus, that being our initial call to faith.
Yes, for we are talking about the issue of salvation. Jesus is all we need for salvation. Jesus is our Savior not something He created (i.e. water).
Luke 1 tells us: She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
He (Jesus) will SAVE his people from their sins. Not water but Jesus. You & your friends have bought into a powerful delusion that has affected you terribly. Jesus is our Savior not water.
The Lord Jesus Christ is what saves us not water. Baptism in water occurs after Jesus saves us. Then we ought to be water baptized, symbolically telling the world that we have indeed trusted in Christ for new life.
The New Testament writers understood this clearly:
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
This whole portion of Scripture clearly explains the "righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Francisco, you are dead wrong to say that righteousness comes through some water. That is heretical!
HopeofGlory
New member
Eternal life!
Eternal life!
For those who believe they can earn eternal life by their obedience. Have you obyed as Jesus commanded?
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matt. 19:16
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Matt. 19:18
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Matt. 19:19
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Matt. 19:20
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Matt. 19:21
If not why not?
Eternal life!
For those who believe they can earn eternal life by their obedience. Have you obyed as Jesus commanded?
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Matt. 19:16
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Matt. 19:18
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Matt. 19:19
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Matt. 19:20
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Matt. 19:21
If not why not?
Jay,
Let's look at it this way. We have both agreed it is by grace that we are initially called to faith and by which we are saved. And grace is an unmerited gift from God.
Can gifts not be taken away? I've given my children gifts, then taken them away when they misbehaved. That's how it works Jay. You have to continue to obey or the gift of grace by which you are saved is taken away from you:
"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22)
It's simple Jay, and scripture tells us so. You will find it if you stop reading the same three verses repeatedly and read the rest of the bible.
God Bless,
Francisco
Salvation is not just accepting Christ. You have to do that, and then you have to follow what He instructed. It's just that simple. Your initial call to faith does not equal eternal salvation.
Let's look at it this way. We have both agreed it is by grace that we are initially called to faith and by which we are saved. And grace is an unmerited gift from God.
Can gifts not be taken away? I've given my children gifts, then taken them away when they misbehaved. That's how it works Jay. You have to continue to obey or the gift of grace by which you are saved is taken away from you:
"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22)
It's simple Jay, and scripture tells us so. You will find it if you stop reading the same three verses repeatedly and read the rest of the bible.
God Bless,
Francisco
Freak
New member
My friend Francisco tells me I refer to only three verses. He says: You will find it if you stop reading the same three verses repeatedly and read the rest of the bible.
Let's see if my friend's math is correct:
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.
Let's see if my friend's math is correct:
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.
Jay,
I wanted to illustrate that if, as you claim, the idea of being born again through water baptism is heretical, then the entire church was heretical, from the end of the apostolic age, through the time of the first reformers. This would indicate 1500+ years of Christians were heretics who stupidly didn't understand what a fragment of Christianity today can now discern. That's a ludicrous concept Jay.
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated [born again] in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus
"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).
The Recognitions of Clement
"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).
Council of Carthage VII
"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the catholic [universal] Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
Basil the Great
*** IT IS NOT FROM THE NATURE OF WATER, BUT FROM THE SPIRIT’S PRESENCE THERE" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]). ***
Ambrose of Milan
"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).
"The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism. . . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).
"You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).
Gregory of Nyssa
"[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths" (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, BOTH regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’" [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
If my belief is heretical I'm in some pretty good company. And I'm still saved according to your minimal standards of belief only. However, the early church fathers are correct, then you are misleading many people with your heretical belief, and the ones who don't see a need for baptism could be condemned. Are you sure you want that responsibility on your head?
God Bless,
Francisco
I wanted to illustrate that if, as you claim, the idea of being born again through water baptism is heretical, then the entire church was heretical, from the end of the apostolic age, through the time of the first reformers. This would indicate 1500+ years of Christians were heretics who stupidly didn't understand what a fragment of Christianity today can now discern. That's a ludicrous concept Jay.
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated [born again] in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus
"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).
The Recognitions of Clement
"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).
Council of Carthage VII
"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the catholic [universal] Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
Basil the Great
*** IT IS NOT FROM THE NATURE OF WATER, BUT FROM THE SPIRIT’S PRESENCE THERE" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]). ***
Ambrose of Milan
"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).
"The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism. . . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).
"You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).
Gregory of Nyssa
"[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths" (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, BOTH regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’" [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
If my belief is heretical I'm in some pretty good company. And I'm still saved according to your minimal standards of belief only. However, the early church fathers are correct, then you are misleading many people with your heretical belief, and the ones who don't see a need for baptism could be condemned. Are you sure you want that responsibility on your head?
God Bless,
Francisco