The Gospel Verses Predestination

beloved57

Well-known member
The whole world has been reconciled unto God by the doing and the dying of Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

That's a tough one for you to swallow because you are all choked up on Calvinism.

Thats a lie, because those reconciled to God while they are enemies shall likewise be saved by His Life. Not all without exception shall be saved by His Life, so consequently not all without exception were reconciled by His death,

Besides that, you teach that sinners Christ died for are lost, you deny the reconciliation !
 

MennoSota

New member
Still misunderstanding what I said, and it keeps causing you to think that I'm contradicting myself.

Try thinking outside your calvinist box for a moment and consider again what I said, within the context that I said it.
I'm not misunderstanding you. I recognize your contradiction very clearly.
You preach universal atonement, but humans can thwart God's universal atonement and make the atonement ineffective and void.
Your message is that Jesus died in vain because humans can remove their atonement by force of their own will. God becomes a passive and weak being who is handcuffed by humans.
 

JudgeRightly

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And yet, you fail to back up your claim.



Since Christ died for all, I agree. ALL are enemies of God. Christ died for his enemies, so that all might be saved (John 3:17).



Christ died for all. Believers and unbelievers are whom Christ died for. But only the believers will be saved, because God cannot reward those who rebel against Him (unbelievers).



Nope. Look at what the verse says:

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. - Romans 5:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:10&version=NKJV

were enemies/were reconciled = aorist tense
having been reconciled = aorist tense
shall be saved = future tense

"Reconciled" is not "saved."

Reconciled:
Strong's g2644

- Lexical: καταλλάσσω
- Transliteration: katallassó
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: kat-al-las'-so
- Definition: to change, exchange, reconcile.
- Origin: From kata and allasso; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference.
- Usage: reconcile.
- Translated as (count): be reconciled (2), having been reconciled (1), having reconciled (1), reconciling (1), we were reconciled (1).

Definition of reconcile
reconciled; reconciling
transitive verb
1 a : to restore to friendship or harmony reconciled the factions
b : settle, resolve reconcile differences
2 : to make consistent or congruous reconcile an ideal with reality
3 : to cause to submit to or accept something unpleasant was reconciled to hardship
4 a : to check (a financial account) against another for accuracy
b : to account for
From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reconcile

Saved:
Strong's g4982

- Lexical: σῴζω
- Transliteration: sózó
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: sode'-zo
- Definition: to save, heal, preserve, rescue.
- Origin: From a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. Deliver or protect (literally or figuratively).
- Usage: heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
- Translated as (count): to save (18), will be saved (10), to be saved (9), save (7), will save (5), being saved (4), has healed (4), he saved (4), might be saved (3), you will save (3), has cured (2), having saved (2), I might save (2), I will be cured (2), saved (2), there would have been saved (2), they might be saved (2), we will be saved (2), you will be saved (2), Be saved (1), has been healed (1), has saved (1), he will be saved (1), he will get well (1), I might be saved (1), is saved (1), let him save (1), save us (1), saving (1), shall save (1), she might be cured (1), she will be restored (1), she will be saved (1), they should be saved (1), to be healed (1), was cured (1), was healed (1), we were saved (1), were being saved (1), were healed (1), will bring safely (1), you are being saved (1).

Definition of save
saved; saving
transitive verb
1 a : to deliver from sin
b : to rescue or deliver from danger or harm
c : to preserve or guard from injury, destruction, or loss
d : to store (data) in a computer or on a storage device (such as a CD or flash drive) save a file Remember to save your work frequently.
2 a : to put aside as a store or reserve : accumulate saving money for emergencies
b : to spend less by save 25 percent
3 a : to make unnecessary : avoid it saves an hour's driving
b (1) : to keep from being lost to an opponent (2) : to prevent an opponent from scoring or winning
4 : maintain, preserve save appearances
From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/save



Still misunderstanding what I said, and it keeps causing you to think that I'm contradicting myself.

Try thinking outside your calvinist box for a moment and consider again what I said, within the context that I said it.

Correction, "were enemies" is not aorist. My mistake.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I'm not misunderstanding you. I recognize your contradiction very clearly.
You preach universal atonement, but humans can thwart God's universal atonement and make the atonement ineffective and void.
Your message is that Jesus died in vain because humans can remove their atonement by force of their own will. God becomes a passive and weak being who is handcuffed by humans.

Your answer / accusation reveals a lack of understanding of the meaning of the word love, as used in the scripture in contexts such as "God so loved the world" and "greater love hath no man than this."
 

JudgeRightly

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I'm not misunderstanding you. I recognize your contradiction very clearly.

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, otherwise you wouldn't be making the argument that you're making.

You preach universal atonement, but humans can thwart God's universal atonement and make the atonement ineffective and void.

I teach that original sin has been paid for, so that no one has to go to hell for Adam's sin.

Your message is that Jesus died in vain because humans can remove their atonement by force of their own will. God becomes a passive and weak being who is handcuffed by humans.

No, I teach that Christ died so that no man would be held guilty of Adam's sin, which brought death to all. Man can still die for his own sin.

That's why Paul says in Romans...

I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. - Romans 7:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:9&version=NKJV

People who have not reached the age of accountability are considered innocent, alive to God, because Christ died on the Cross to save them from Adam's sin, so that if they die, they don't go to hell for his sin. However, when they reach the age of accountability, sin revives in them, and they die to God. But Christ's sacrifice wasn't just for Adam, it was for all men, so that all men could be saved, even from their own sin, and not just Adam's.

I recommend you read this article (again, if you already have).

https://kgov.com/age-of-accountability
 

Rosenritter

New member
Are you claiming that in this passage Jesus is declaring that the human will is greater than God's will?
Are humans more powerful than God?

Your question was ignorantly posed, I have done you the favor of reinterpreting your question to the topic at hand. It isn't a matter of which will is greater, it is a question of which whether God always gets what he wants.
 

MennoSota

New member
Your answer / accusation reveals a lack of understanding of the meaning of the word love, as used in the scripture in contexts such as "God so loved the world" and "greater love hath no man than this."
No, I don't misunderstand agape love. I do understand John 3, however, while you cherry pick the Bible.
 

MennoSota

New member
Yes, you are misunderstanding me, otherwise you wouldn't be making the argument that you're making.



I teach that original sin has been paid for, so that no one has to go to hell for Adam's sin.



No, I teach that Christ died so that no man would be held guilty of Adam's sin, which brought death to all. Man can still die for his own sin.

That's why Paul says in Romans...

I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. - Romans 7:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:9&version=NKJV

People who have not reached the age of accountability are considered innocent, alive to God, because Christ died on the Cross to save them from Adam's sin, so that if they die, they don't go to hell for his sin. However, when they reach the age of accountability, sin revives in them, and they die to God. But Christ's sacrifice wasn't just for Adam, it was for all men, so that all men could be saved, even from their own sin, and not just Adam's.

I recommend you read this article (again, if you already have).

https://kgov.com/age-of-accountability
So...you're a universalist. Got it.
 

MennoSota

New member
Your question was ignorantly posed, I have done you the favor of reinterpreting your question to the topic at hand. It isn't a matter of which will is greater, it is a question of which whether God always gets what he wants.
Are you saying God is too weak to get what He wills?
 

MennoSota

New member
Incorrect.
It is correct, based upon your previous, post.
However, I know you have created a contradiction to your universalism, by essentially stating that the atonement of Jesus is universal (universalism), but humans can cancel out Jesus atonement so that it becomes useless. Humans make Jesus atonement useless by rejecting the atonement and choosing instead to say no thank you to the automatic upgrade. Essentially, humans can delete the upgrade and stick with the "Windows Vista" version (the flawed and worthless version). God is therefore handcuffed and restricted from atoning for the sins of those who remove the perfect upgrade by their own choice.
And there you have it. Your convoluted and baseless belief system with its contradictions all wrapped within.
What a pretzel you have. All because you insist on the non-stated, philosophy of free-will.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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It is correct, based upon your previous, post.
However, I know you have created a contradiction to your universalism, by essentially stating that the atonement of Jesus is universal (universalism), but humans can cancel out Jesus atonement so that it becomes useless. Humans make Jesus atonement useless by rejecting the atonement and choosing instead to say no thank you to the automatic upgrade. Essentially, humans can delete the upgrade and stick with the "Windows Vista" version (the flawed and worthless version). God is therefore handcuffed and restricted from atoning for the sins of those who remove the perfect upgrade by their own choice.
And there you have it. Your convoluted and baseless belief system with its contradictions all wrapped within.
What a pretzel you have. All because you insist on the non-stated, philosophy of free-will.

For a guy who THINKS he knows everything, you seem to relish your own ignorance.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
I'm not misunderstanding you. I recognize your contradiction very clearly.
You preach universal atonement, but humans can thwart God's universal atonement and make the atonement ineffective and void.
Your message is that Jesus died in vain because humans can remove their atonement by force of their own will. God becomes a passive and weak being who is handcuffed by humans.

If ignorance were TRULY bliss, you'd be the happiest person on planet earth.
 
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