ECT The Gospel Proper

[Danoh]

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Honestly, Danoh, you need to go back and read the CONTEXT of this conversation, because you have no idea what I'm talking about.

That is probably true.

And it's probably not the first time I was perhaps clueless about where someone may or may not have been coming from, and I doubt it will my the last.

So please feel free to point that out where you might believe that is the case, and as often as you see fit.

At the same time, the passages you cited were written from a "Time Past" perspective, Eph. 2 - of God's dealings with Israel under The Law, Deut. 4.

They were held to a standard that the Gentiles - who were "without God in the world" were not held to, God basically winking at their discords, Acts 17.

I was addressing that.

Nehemiah 8:8.

 

[glorydaz]

Is it my imagination or do you sound somewhat grudging? Does "love thy enemy" and "love one another" apply universally to everyone, as a commandment to all that hear, or not?

More likely he's "somewhat grudging" of having to explain the same thing over and over.

You worry a topic more than my dog worries over his bones. :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

It makes sense that God hates the evil, that he laid down his life for us while we were enemies and at enmity with God, and is willing that all men should come to a knowledge of the truth. God doesn't have hatred for his creation, he is willing to forgive and redeem. We are to love our enemies so that we might be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. This is a love approaching the love of God, not superior to it.

Spoiler

I was once in a very bad situation where there was no money for immediate food. I asked for help at least so my pets would not starve. A couple days later a stranger came and delivered a check written "from God" (her note) and apologized for not having brought it the couple days earlier when she had been told in a dream (the couple days earlier coincided with the prayer.) Does that count as a miracle or is that a coincidence that we expect to happen naturally from time to time?

I could list several examples even limited to my personal experience, but what would be gained by sharing that with someone who would deny anything and everything out of hand for lack of faith or hardheadedness or otherwise? I think it would be very foolish to limit God as to what or how he is allowed to relate to and deal with his Creation. It also seems unwise to not give credit to God for what he has done.

Answering prayer is not the same as parting the seas or healing the blind.

 

[Danoh]

...

No, I mean that all miracles have ceased for the time being....

Yep.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

So...

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And so on...

Acts 17:11, 12.

 

[Danoh]

...

I could list several examples even limited to my personal experience, but what would be gained by sharing that with someone who would deny anything and everything out of hand for lack of faith or hardheadedness or otherwise? I think it would be very foolish to limit God as to what or how he is allowed to relate to and deal with his Creation. It also seems unwise to not give credit to God for what he has done....

To be sure, the following is not a pill simple for many to swallow.

Not when they have a placebo of their own imagination.

1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Your above falls under the category of the superstition of many within Christianity known as "the Lord works in mysterious ways."

This, in contrast not only to Scripture's assertion that He "has made known unto us the mystery of his will" Eph. 1:9, but that, as a result one is expected to "have an understanding what the will of the Lord is." Eph. 5:17.

In short, yours is nothing more than the put on the blindfold of one's own reasoning, spin around quickly several times within said reasoning, and then proceed to attempt to somehow pin the tail on the donkey of God's will.

If things work out as desired, than like the typical pagan conclusion from external events, it must've been God's will.

If things do not work out as desired, well, then like the typical pagan conclusion based on external events, it must not have been God's will.

Ephesians 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[turbosixx]

Is that a "yes, there are other baptisms besides water" or a "no, there is only water baptism"?

What baptism is Jesus talking about?

 

[turbosixx]

Of course they did. Not only that....those people they were preaching to were of the CIRCUMCISION. They were not to keep company with or go to any gentiles. What is it you imagine they were teaching? They were teaching the Law. Unclean people, unclean food, commandment keeping....

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.​

Key word IMAGINE. I've seen no proof they taught the law. I don't base my understanding on the book of imagination. God has shown us what they taught from Pentecost on. The same thing that got them beaten and tossed into jail. That is what they were teaching, Christ.

 

[turbosixx]

No, turbo, that is you reading what you are asserting it means INTO it.

He said that to the Twelve - the same Twelve He said to pray that the Tribulation of Matthew 24 would not come ON - THE SABBATH DAY.

But you already skipped dealing with the passage that mentions said Sabbath Day - it went right past you - off you went to ask for a passage that shows them "practicing the Law after Pentecost."

Duh-uh, that passage about The Sabbath Day IS one of those passages you are asking for.

:doh:

You've rendered yourself blind to the obvious by your confirmation bias - those passages are all connected to THEM (the Twelve and their ISRAELITE converts) and give one a greater sense of THEIR (the Twelve and their ISRAELITE converts) context.

I'll give you another one - real simple ones, for you are nowhere near ready for meat - heck, even most MADs never get past the milk of these things.

Anyway, see this person here?

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

A disciple of the Lord, right?

Note what Paul could not have gotten away with saying about him to fellow Israelites if it had not been true...

Acts 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

Not only was the man a devout man according to the Law, but so much so that ALL the Jews which dwelt there thought highly of him.

Twist away, Turbo.

Its why you are so clueless on the actual sense of that baptism passage in Mark 16 that you not only so liberally isolate from both the balance of its passages there, but from many other passages its' words are based on.

Again, I don't believe you are up to no good, just not up to par where correctly dealing with such passages are concerned, if you do deal with them, at all.

Isaiah 8:20

I see your point. Thanks for continuing to point that out. Here's my problem with that logic. That isn't proof they taught the law.
Do you think becoming a Christian comes with a memory dump and a new upload? That is not the case. These people have been taught these things for over a thousand years. It's going to take time to fully understand the law of liberty.

Is it sinful to observe the Sabbath Day?
Rom. 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother?

You're asserting your thinking into Matt. 24 as well. The weak brother will not want to travel on the Sabbath but the stronger will. They are both brothers in Christ.

God has shown us what the 12 taught from Pentecost on and it wasn't the law. Teaching the law didn't land them in jail or get them beaten. They taught Christ.

 

[turbosixx]

Correct.....so obviously baptism has no saving value then correct. as one's salvation is dependent upon his heart and not like the Pharisees, where they did as a show.

That is totally incorrect. You are using a hypothetical to do away with what JESUS instructed. I suggest you really really need to rethink that.

Baptism is an illustration of Gospel which is the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

Please show me scripture to support your point. What does THE BIBLE SAY about baptism.

Always done AFTER one has become saved.

Where does saved come in this verse, before or after baptism?
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

[turbosixx]

Actually, you remind me of myself. For years I realized there were things that were DIFFERENT between what was preached by the twelve and what Paul preached. I wasn't sure why, but I set it aside instead of trying to force it all to say the same thing.

We do see a little difference in the two but it's from the same source. Consider the gospels. They are all a little different but are from the same source and about the same thing, Jesus. They're a little different because they are to different audiences and focus on different things but we consider them as the same.

One was that Jesus came only to the lost sheep of Israel (who were the CIRCUMCISION),

There is a reason He only went to Israel. They were the ones God had given his prophecies to and they were the ones to confirm Him as the Messiah because of the prophecies.

and what the cutting off of the Jews and the grafting in of the Gentiles meant,

What were the Gentiles grafted into?

God gave the Jews a period of time to believe their Messiah had come...they had to come as a nation.

I suggest "they had to come as a nation" is incorrect and a basis for confusion. What does Paul say?
Rom. 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
A OT prophecy says only a remnant.

But when they didn't, God commissioned Paul to preach the Gospel of Grace to all people. Those of the Circumcision who believed, had a hard time accepting the change, as Peter makes clear when he was cleared by God to accept Cornelius.

If you'd stop trying to make Peter and Paul say the same thing, you might see what folks are trying to tell you.

I have been given ZERO proof they converted Christians any differently.

Thank you so much for your comments. I do appreciate you.

 

[turbosixx]

God can perform miracles any time that He likes.

I don't disagree, He is God.

So you believe men can perform miracles today?

 

[turbosixx]

I have. You are unable to see.

Please help me to see. I finally got a point Danoh was making. Took me a while but he didn't give up.

PS
You're unable to see my points as well.

 

[turbosixx]

Its why you are so clueless on the actual sense of that baptism passage in Mark 16 that you not only so liberally isolate from both the balance of its passages there, but from many other passages its' words are based on.

If I don't consider Mk. 16:16 with other passages, then why do I continually ask this question and do not get an answer?
Mk. 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.
It's obvious these passages are directly related.

WHY in the world would Paul baptize believers EXACTLY as Jesus instructed in Mk. 16:16 if 1) he was not sent to 2) it's not part of "his" gospel. WHY, what possible reason to go against the truth? Please provide scriptural support.

 

[turbosixx]

Yes it is.
So what.
Yes, she does.
Supra.

We are beginning to go around in circles now. Because I answer your concerns/challenges, and then you forget, and ask/challenge the same things again. So I think we're probably done wrt this discussion.

Yep. Thanks for your time! God Bless.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What baptism is Jesus talking about?

Please answer my question first.

Are there other baptisms besides water?

 

[turbosixx]

Please answer my question first.

Are there other baptisms besides water?

Yes.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes.

Do you think that Christians should be baptised by water?

 

[Clete]

Sorry I didn't explain. Before his conversion Paul had a clear conscience that he was doing God's will but he was wrong. Thinking with all our heart that we are right isn't proof we are right. We must compare that with scripture.

Okay, well, I suppose, but he wasn't Paul at that time, right - he was Saul. I know, it's a fine point to make but every syllable we know anything about that came from Paul is the very scripture itself that you want to compare one's convictions with.

Also, there are dozens of cults that can quote you the bible till everyone in the room is blue in the face and passing out. I've personally heard Wicans use scripture from the Christian bible to justify their witchcraft, of all thing!

Not that you're condoning any such use of the bible. I say all that merely to make the point that the Scriptures, in and of themselves, do not guarantee that one will get things right. It isn't the bible we need in order to know the truth, it is Jesus, God the Son, the Logos Himself. The "light" that the Logos brings to all mankind is not the sort of light that illuminate the room but the sort that illuminates your mind (John 1:4-9). Of course, we'd not know anything about Jesus if not for the scriptures but people got their worldview right long before the bible existed, so its kind of a chicken/egg sort of thing I suppose.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying! I was a little worried there for a minute!

Clete

 

[Right Divider]

Then there was no need to say anything at all.

No need for you to nag either.

 

[Right Divider]

Is it my imagination or do you sound somewhat grudging? Does "love thy enemy" and "love one another" apply universally to everyone, as a commandment to all that hear, or not?

MML&J all have the context of the Jesus coming to His people Israel. So these truths are all applicable in that context.

That some of that teaching may also have a universal application is ALSO true.