turbosixx
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What about repentance?
ECT The Gospel Proper
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What about repentance?
What about it?
turbosixx
New member
Shouldn't it be part of the gospel proper?
So, if some lunatic starts a religion that's completlely made up out of whole cloth in every respect accept that one of their main characters in their made up religoous story is a guy named Jesus who was murdered on a cross in Jerusalem and rose from the dead, you're okay with thinking that this lunatic's converts are going to pass through God's judgement intact?
My last point states...
If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Very well, as it is written...
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
2 Corithians 11:4 KJV
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
The Mormons, JW's, "believe in Jesus," but not the Lord Jesus Christ of the scripture...There is one God-survey Isaiah 43:10 KJV; Isaiah 44:6-8 KJV, Isaiah 45:5 KJV.
The Lord Jesus Christ is both God, and man-(John 1:1 KJV, John 1:14 KJV; Colossians 2:9 KJV; Hebrews 1:8 KJV.................)
Survey:
John 8:24 KJV
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins
Exodus 3 KJV
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The Lord Jesus Christ, in no uncertain terms, ties himself to the Great "I Am," the LORD God, that appeared to Moses, at the "burning bush," and thus, tells everyone, who has "ears to hear," that if you do not believe He is God, you will die in your sins. If the Lord Jesus Christ is not God, He is in no position to claim to be the "lamb without blemish, sinless,the satisfactory sacrifice(propitiation)and in no position to save anyone.
QED.
And the requirements to be Saviour, "The Kinsman Redeemer," include Him being God, as I outlined previously, so your "saying it doesn't make it so" is misplaced.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
That is exactly what I've said, though iow. I cannot conceive of a person who believes that Christ's Resurrection is an historical fact, nonfiction, who is not in some sense my sibling in Christ.
It doesn't mean that I listen to Anything they tell me about the Christian faith, in saying so.
John 8:24 is a powerful, powerful verse of Scripture.
I think you've convinced me.
I was just reading through the points in the OP, trying to figure out where the deity of Christ would fit logically and, as it turns out, maybe I wasn't very far from being convinced from the very beginning!
Point five reads...
"God, being unwilling that all should perish, provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) in the person of His only begotten Son, God the Son, whom we call Jesus
This is clearly insufficient in your view. How would you suggest I edit it?
Clete
turbosixx
New member
Just to be clear are you saying confession is repentance? Confessing Jesus as Lord is turning to Him and recognizing Him as our master but I see confession as evidence of that turning.
I explained, explicitly, what I meant by saying that saying it doesn't make it so.
Prior to my having said that, your argument consisted of the single word, "Wrong". That's not an argument and I am not wrong merely because you typed the word 'wrong' in response to my post.
What you did in post 47 was PRECISELY what I wanted, an actual argument and not simply a bodly stated doctrinal position.
The point being that simply making a claim isn't proof, it isn't even an argument and no matter how strongly held or firmly convinced one is about what they believe, even if they happen to to completely correct, their simply proclaiming it as truth isn't what makes it the truth.
Clete
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Isaiah 28:10 KJV...
The "kinsman redeemer" concept explains why the Lord Jesus Christ, must be God, and man. In Genesis, "The seed Plot of the Holy Bible", we have the "beginning" of 7(representing completion, perfection) promises/requirements of this redeemer. The redeemer would:
1.be from the human race-Gen. 3:15 KJV=seed of a woman(and virgin birth-only a male has a seed)
2. be from a certain section of the human race-Gen. 9:26 KJV=Shem
3. be from a certain nation of that section-Gen. 12:1-3 KJV=Hebrew
4. be from a certain tribe of that Hebrew nation-Gen. 49:10 KJV=Judah
5. be from a certain family of that tribe-2 Sam. 7:16 KJV=David
6. be of a certain member of that family-Is. 7:14 KJV=Mary
7. be from a certain village belonging to that family member-Micah 5:2 KJV-Bethlehem Ephratah(which means "house of bread/fruitful, grow, increase")
According to the Old Testament laws regarding punishment and retribution for a crime(sin), when one was assaulted, robbed, murdered...., the responsibility to bring the criminal to justice and to protect the lives/property of the relatives fell to the nearest "kinsman". This responsibility/obligation was referred to as "redeeming", and the man who had this role was called a "redeemer"('goel' in Hebrew). Thus, the LORD God would use this object lesson to teach that redemption(to buy back/release for the purpose of setting free) is provided by a kinsman redeemer. The kinsman redeemer is someone who is qualified to execute the law of redemption-he is qualified to pay the price of debt. This kinsman redeemer of the Old Testament was a "type" of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Redeemer. There were 4 requirements for redemption:
1. Redeemer must be a near kinsman(Lev. 25:25 KJV-"...any of his kin....). The Lord Jesus Christ became a MAN, taking on human form. Thus,
"...THE MAN CHRIST JESUS(emphasis mine)....." 2 Tim. 2:5 KJV
"And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood A MAN(emphasis mine) over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did WORSHIP(emphasis mine), and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so." Joshua 5:13-15 KJV
"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Daniel 7:9 KJV
"Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain MAN(emphasis mine) clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude." Daniel 10:5-6 KJV
"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle...
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters." Rev. 1:13-15 KJV
This is "the Alpha and the Omega"=God, and MAN, none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9 KJV
This is Paul's point-"the Lord Jesus"= You must acknowlege Him as Lord=Deity=God. Eventually, all will do this(including Satan and "his gang" and the unsaved), all will acknowlegde that He is God, as it is written:
"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
Survey Isaiah 45 KJV
1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden,
to subdue nations before him;
and I will loose the loins of kings,
to open before him the two leaved gates;
and the gates shall not be shut;
2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight:
I will break in pieces the gates of brass,
and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 and I will give thee the treasures of darkness,
and hidden riches of secret places,
that thou mayest know that I, the Lord,
which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect,
I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me.
I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above,
and let the skies pour down righteousness:
let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation,
and let righteousness spring up together;
I the Lord have created it.
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.
Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?
or thy work, He hath no hands?
10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou?
or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,
Ask me of things to come concerning my sons,
and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it:
I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens,
and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness,
and I will direct all his ways:
he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives,
not for price nor reward,
saith the Lord of hosts.
14 Thus saith the Lord,
The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature,
shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine:
they shall come after thee;
in chains they shall come over,
and they shall fall down unto thee,
they shall make supplication unto thee, saying,
Surely God is in thee;
and there is none else,
there is no God.
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself,
O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them:
they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens;
God himself that formed the earth and made it;
he hath established it,
he created it not in vain,
he formed it to be inhabited:
I am the Lord; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth:
I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain:
I the Lord speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.
20 Assemble yourselves and come;
draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations:
they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image,
and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near;
yea, let them take counsel together:
who hath declared this from ancient time?
who hath told it from that time?
have not I the Lord?
and there is no God else beside me;
a just God and a Saviour;
there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am God,
and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself,
the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength:
even to him shall men come;
and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified,
and shall glory.
2.Redeemer must be able to redeem-must be able to pay the whole price of redemption by yourself. The satisfactory price was the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ(Acts 20:28 KJV, 1 Peter 1:18-19 KJV, Romans 3:24-25 KJV..............).
3.The redeemer must not be compromised by his predicament, i.e., the redeemer must be free from that which caused the need for redemption. Thus, the redeemer could not redeem himself. No slave, for example, could redeem another slave. A person in bondage was in no position to redeem another. This explains the virgin conception. This REQUIRES that the redeemer be God. The Lord Jesus Christ "...knew no sin...."(2 Cor. 5:21 KJV-see also 1 John 3:5 KJV, 1 Peter 2:22 KJV, Hebrews 4:15 KJV, John 8:46 KJV, Exodus 12:5 KJV="YOUR LAMB SHALL BE WITHOUT BLEMISH(emphasis mine)". Only God fits this REQUIREMENT.
4. The redeemer must be willing-must be voluntary:
*"If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD." Leviticus 1:3 KJV
* Genesis 22:6 KJV-"...they went both of them together..... A "picture"/type of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ voluntarily walking together.
And notice in the Genesis 22 account that Isaac, as a type of Christ, was old enough to carry wood(a picture of the cross) up the mountain. This infers that he was probably at least in his teen years, maybe older. It would have been very unlikely that Abraham, in his advanced years, could have "forced" Isaac onto the altar. Thus, Isaac voluntarily, in faith, offered himself as the sacrifice, just as the Lord Jesus Christ did, as it is written:
"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:18 KJV
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit OFFERED HIMSELF(emphasis mine) without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Hebrews 9:14 KJV
Survey "the angel of the LORD" passages, which clearly points to the LORD(God the Father) and the "angel of the LORD" as separate "persons", and yet the angel of the LORD, which is the pre-incarnation person of the Lord Jesus Christ, both as diety. Example:
"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman..." Judges 13:3 KJV
"Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A MAN(emphasis mine) of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name..." Judges 13:6 KJV
"For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and FELL ON THEIR FACES TO THE GROUND(emphasis mine).
But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN GOD(emphasis mine)." Judges 13: 20-22 KJV
You missed it-I expounded previously, on other posts, citing chapter, verse, so you saying to me"your argument consisted of the single word, "Wrong".,." is misguided, and, yes, wrong.
See re-post #54.
Post #17, for eg.
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?131175-The-Gospel-Proper&p=5288451&highlight=#post5288451
Well this is sort of what I was asking you when I asked, "What about it?".
The word repentence is a very loaded word. Most of the Christians I've known in my life think it means "start doing right things and stop doing wrong things". The problem with this idea is that leads inexorably to legalism. After all, it is the Law that teaches us right from wrong. Not only that but it implies that there is something not quite sufficient about what Jesus accomplished and that there is something that we must add to His work.
Now, in direct answer to your question, it seems to me that saying that confession is evidence of repentence is to make a distinction without a difference. The spiritual battle occures in the mind and thus it isn't the physical utterance of the words that saves, it's the condition of the heart that produced those words. In other words, Romans 10:9-10 presupposes that the confession be sincere.
Clete
turbosixx
New member
I agree to some point, so to challenge/understand your point better, do we need to even utter the words?
An excellent biblical proof that Jesus Christ is indeed God Himself but this point is not in dispute.
It was post 47 and the quotation of John 8:24 in particular that has succesfully convinced me that it ought to be included in the gospel proper.
Clete
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