The false gospel of grace

Bright Raven

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We Gentiles, in time past of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John even all the way to Acts 19 can be shown as Gentiles "at that time" being "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" according to Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV so please refrain from using the mystery of the gospel (Ephesians 3:6 KJV) as proof text of John when Ephesians 3 is a late mystery revealed to and through Paul (who was exclusively given the dispensation of the grace of God to us) which was before not made known to the sons of God, unsearchable and hid in God before Paul. Thank you.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

In your quest to put yourself back there in John, you are failing to rightly divbide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). Come on, BR.

From Gotquestions.org

To understand who the “other sheep” from John 10:16 are, we must begin with the context of the verse and examine the whole passage. We know from many Bible passages that sheep are a symbol of true believers who follow Christ, their true Shepherd. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. If He says that there are “other” sheep, then we must identify the original sheep that the “others” are different from.

Beginning in chapter 9 of John, we find Jesus discoursing at great length with the Pharisees after He healed a man who was born blind. He compares the man’s simple faith with the unbelief of the Pharisees and condemns them for their willful spiritual blindness. He begins by denouncing the false shepherds of Israel—the blind, self-appointed leaders who drew the people away from the true knowledge and kingdom of their Messiah (John 9:39-41). Then in chapter 10, He explains at great length the nature of true sheep, those who follow the Good Shepherd, sent and appointed by God. True sheep are those who listen to the voice of the Shepherd (v. 3) and follow Him (v. 4) and know Him (v. 14). He can only be speaking here of the true sheep of Israel because, up to that point, His ministry was confined to the sheep of Israel.

In verse 16, Jesus refers to the “other sheep,” and those can only be sheep that are outside of Israel, in other words, Gentiles. But the Gentiles who would follow Him are no less sheep than the true sheep of Israel. In fact, Jesus makes it clear that the Gentile sheep would also hear His voice and follow Him, and, eventually, there would be only one flock and one Shepherd. This is the mystery of the universal body of Christ, the church, which Paul refers to in Ephesians 3:6, “This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.” A mystery in Scripture is usually something not revealed previously, and this mystery—one universal church with both Jews and Gentiles brought together in one body in the Messiah—was so shocking to the Pharisees that they accused Jesus of being a demon-possessed lunatic (John 10:20-21).

Paul’s commission from Christ was to “preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ” (Ephesians 6:8) because the Gentiles, the “other sheep,” needed to be brought into the fold of the true Shepherd. Paul explains in Romans 11:16-36 the mystery of the church by using the imagery of a branch (the Gentiles) being grafted into the tree (Israel). Israel has been temporarily set aside until the “full number of the Gentiles has come in” (Romans 11:25). This is occurring now in the Church Age, but eventually both Jews and Gentiles will live in glorious harmony in the Millennial Kingdom and then in eternity when all true sheep will follow their Shepherd forever as one body.
 

Jerry Shugart

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The sin/sins issue was settled by the cross...

Yes, in regard to salvation. But what about a Christian's "walk"?

Were the following Christians chastened for their sins or not?:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep"
(1 Cor.11:29-30).​

Do you judge yourself in regard to any sins you have committed since you were saved?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1 Cor.11:31-32).​
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
And yet the main theme that people are told is the law is done away with, grace takes care of your sins, don't worry its all fine to keep on sinning.

Would you mind giving us your interpretation of the meaning of the following two verses?:

"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any" (1 Cor.6:12).​

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not" (1 Cor.10:23).​

Thanks!
 

Right Divider

Body part
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt.25:31-34).​

Do you deny that there will be Gentiles from "all nations" who will inherit the kingdom? If not, then you cannot deny that the Lord Jesus refers to those Gentiles as "sheep."
There can be no doubt that Paul never calls believers of any kind sheep in his 13 epistles.

The "other fold" in John is NOT referring to gentiles, but to Israelite's scattered into gentile lands. Of this there can be no doubt!
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Yes, in regard to salvation. But what about a Christian's "walk"?

Were the following Christians chastened for their sins or not?:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep"
(1 Cor.11:29-30).​

Do you judge yourself in regard to any sins you have committed since you were saved?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1 Cor.11:31-32).​
You poor man. This has nothing to do with any one of us as we are not of the 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 KJV. You have no idea what those passages are about in 1 Corinthians 11 or of whom they speak. As to your question, I reckon myself to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Good day.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
if you can't earn your way into salvation, what sin can cast you out of it?
You can't earn your way into salvation, but there are many sins that can cast you out from salvation.


Ephesians 5:5
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​



Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.​



1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.​

 

Jerry Shugart

New member
You poor man. This has nothing to do with any one of us as we are not of the 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 KJV. You have no idea what those passages are about in 1 Corinthians 11 or of whom they speak. As to your question, I reckon myself to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So these words of Paul addressed to the church at Corinth are not addressed to those in the Body of Christ?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1Cor.11:31-32).​

You say that "This has nothing to do with any one of us as we are not of the 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 KJV."

Here is what Paul said at another place in this epistle:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

Do you deny that Paul is referring to the Church, which is His Body?
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
There can be no doubt that Paul never calls believers of any kind sheep in his 13 epistles.

The "other fold" in John is NOT referring to gentiles, but to Israelite's scattered into gentile lands. Of this there can be no doubt!

Since there will be Gentile believers in "all nations" do you deny that the Lord Jesus refers to these Gentiles as sheep?:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"
(Mt.25:31-34).​

Paul may not but the Lord Jesus does.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
  • Paul NEVER calls any believer a sheep in his epistles. FACT.
Really?

Romans 8:35-36
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.​


Gentiles are NEVER referred to as SHEEP in scripture.
Did Paul write Romans to Jews or to Gentiles or to both?

There can be no doubt that Paul never calls believers of any kind sheep in his 13 epistles.
You are sure about that?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Since there will be Gentile believers in "all nations" do you deny that the Lord Jesus refers to these Gentiles as sheep?:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"
(Mt.25:31-34).​

Paul may not but the Lord Jesus does.
I very much enjoy your apples and oranges.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
So these words of Paul addressed to the church at Corinth are not addressed to those in the Body of Christ?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1Cor.11:31-32).​

You say that "This has nothing to do with any one of us as we are not of the 1 Corinthians 11:29-30 KJV."
I never said that the words Paul spoke there were not to members of the Body of Christ (although those at Corinth were not all members of the church, which is His Body). I said it had none to do with us.

It's a letter of correction to an idolatrous group, specifically to those at the time and this particular portion of the epistle is about their divisiveness (1 Corinthians 11:17:18 KJV), heresies (1 Corinthians 11:19 KJV), the Lord's supper (what they were calling what they were doing though their command was to not do it (1 Corinthians 11:20-22 KJV) and Paul receiving of the Lord about the night the Lord was betrayed (1 Corinthians 11:23 KJV) including the consequences of what the 12 were under had they not (1 Corinthians 11:24-32 KJV which should never be misconstrued to have anything to do with members of the Body of Christ, then or now), and then back to those at Corinth (1 Corinthians 11:33-34 KJV).

Here is what Paul said at another place in this epistle:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

Do you deny that Paul is referring to the Church, which is His Body?
Nope. It's how all members of the Body of Christ are baptized (identified) upon trusting the Lord believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).

Go bark up someone else's tree. I'm not interested in discussing anything with you. Been there, done that, bought the shirt.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Poor Jerry... always looking to "one up" everyone.

Poor Right Divider...always denying the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law because he has been told that the Jews who lived under the law couldn't be saved apart from works. Here is what the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
It's a letter of correction to an idolatrous group...

So Paul's words here were addressed to an idolatrous group?:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world"
(1Cor.11:31-32).​

When Paul used the words "we" and "ourselves" he was including himself. So he obviously thought that he should judge himself.

Do you judge yourself?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Poor Right Divider...always denying the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law because he has been told that the Jews who lived under the law couldn't be saved apart from works. Here is what the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​
Poor Jerry cannot reply to what people are posting to him. Instead his religious zealotry requires him to always fall back to a few pet verses.
 

Bright Raven

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I thought you would attempt to respond to this yourself, at the very least, in light of the passages provided. I'm not interested in reading articles by bible blenders.

Sometimes others put it better than I do.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
Poor Jerry cannot reply to what people are posting to him. Instead his religious zealotry requires him to always fall back to a few pet verses.

When you refer to my pet verses are you referring to the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law at John 6:47, His words which you deny over and over?

Not only do you deny them, you run and hide when challenged to give your interpretation of the meaning of these words:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​
 

Right Divider

Body part
When you refer to my pet verses are you referring to the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law at John 6:47, His words which you deny over and over?
No, I do NOT deny them. Your false accusations are tiring.

Not only do you deny them, you run and hide when challenged to give your interpretation of the meaning of these words:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​
Quit lying about me Jerry.
 
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