ECT The failure of the Bible or God is not resolved by a future Israel

Interplanner

Well-known member
If someone can show where the truth of the Bible or God, according to the apostles, finally rests on a view of a future Israel, please do! In Romans, that is never the thing that resolves this problem, or question. The question is resolved in the belief that Christ fulfilled what was promised to Israel/the fathers so that the nations would be able to believe and share in the promises too.
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Nations have not beat their swords into plowshares...nor will they before the Lord returns

What does it matter if the word of God is spoken by Christ or by Paul or by Isaiah? [or YOU] the promise is there, it cannot fail
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
It is so simple that it is frustrating to see all of the confused folks arguing about this.



Old Covenant- Let Israel inherit the land, like God said.

4 gospels, Hebrews thru Rev- Let this new Israel inherit the New Jerusalem, like God said.

Romans-Philemon - Let the Body inherit the heavens, like God said.


Find out where you belong, and find the scriptures written to you, and get on with it.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
It is so simple that it is frustrating to see all of the confused folks arguing about this.



Old Covenant- Let Israel inherit the land, like God said.

4 gospels, Hebrews thru Rev- Let this new Israel inherit the New Jerusalem, like God said.

Romans-Philemon - Let the Body inherit the heavens, like God said.


Find out where you belong, and find the scriptures written to you, and get on with it.
Amen!
 

achduke

Active member
It is so simple that it is frustrating to see all of the confused folks arguing about this.



Old Covenant- Let Israel inherit the land, like God said.

4 gospels, Hebrews thru Rev- Let this new Israel inherit the New Jerusalem, like God said.

Romans-Philemon - Let the Body inherit the heavens, like God said.


Find out where you belong, and find the scriptures written to you, and get on with it.

What is the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven? They are used interchangeably. Matthew preferred Kingdom of Heaven while the rest preferred Kingdom of God.


Matthew 13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field”

Mark 4:26 And He said, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground”

Matthew 19:23 “Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Mark 10:23 “Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!" (Luke 18:24).

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Mark 10:14 “But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 13:31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,

Mark 4:30 Then He said, "To what shall we liken the kingdom of God? Or with what parable shall we picture it?
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
If someone can show where the truth of the Bible or God, according to the apostles, finally rests on a view of a future Israel, please do! In Romans, that is never the thing that resolves this problem, or question. The question is resolved in the belief that Christ fulfilled what was promised to Israel/the fathers so that the nations would be able to believe and share in the promises too.

The WHOLE bible is about the King and His kingdom

It was forfeit in the garden
Promised to Abe
Foreshadowed in the law
Prophesied by the prophets
Announced by Jesus
Proclaimed throughout the world by the church
It will be manifest at Jesu's return

People for centuries have been proclaiming the kingdom of God...while actually taking the kingdom out of the message, no wonder they said we were preaching pie in the sky.

For the church our portion is the heavenly part but the Jews will inherit the earthly part...and all the rest of mankind will flock to Israel to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.


....Aren't you glad that the rest of mankind are to be saved? the folk that the church has failed to reach? failed miserably, just as much as the Jews failed.

The Kingdom of Heaven is what the WHOLE world desires, Peace and Prosperity for all....but not all will accept the requisite Righteousness.
 

HisServant

New member
The WHOLE bible is about the King and His kingdom

It was forfeit in the garden
Promised to Abe
Foreshadowed in the law
Prophesied by the prophets
Announced by Jesus
Proclaimed throughout the world by the church
It will be manifest at Jesu's return

People for centuries have been proclaiming the kingdom of God...while actually taking the kingdom out of the message, no wonder they said we were preaching pie in the sky.

For the church our portion is the heavenly part but the Jews will inherit the earthly part...and all the rest of mankind will flock to Israel to learn the ways of the God of Jacob.


....Aren't you glad that the rest of mankind are to be saved? the folk that the church has failed to reach? failed miserably, just as much as the Jews failed.

The Kingdom of Heaven is what the WHOLE world desires, Peace and Prosperity for all....but not all will accept the requisite Righteousness.

I don't see all this in scripture at all.
 

HisServant

New member
I can't help you

What I see is God having compassion on Adam and Eve during the fall by not executing them and then setting up the entire plan of salvation to teach humans that the knowledge of good an evil does not make them gods.

Then I see God being hands off and watching humans take that knowledge of good and evil and declare themselves as gods, except for Noah, who he deemed righteous and saved him and his family.

Then I see Abraham, who remembered God and served him, whom God once again deemed righteous, but also understood that leaving mankind alone again would yield the same result, so he promised Abraham that his seed would fill the earth.

Then I see God using Abraham's seed as an example before the world that he still existed and what was required for our salvation... as part of the tasks that Israel was to perform God promised them a land until their task was complete (the end of the age).

God sends Jesus as Israel's Messiah to teach them that he existed that that the law was not god in and of itself as the Rabbis had come to believe.

Jesus is crucified, buried and rose from the dead, thereby ending the need for the sacrifices in the temple, defeating Satan and defeating death and then ascending into heaven.

After which the penalty levied on the descendants of Adam and Eve was rescinded and God is now able to live with us again (through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

Israels part in God's plan then became obsolete at that point and God made sure that Israels tasks were never again done when he allowed the destruction of the temple in AD70... never to be built again because it would be a grievous sin against the work of his son.

And here we are today, God loves those he has saved and indwelt with his Holy Spirit and has created wondrous works for us to do that he planed from the foundation of the world.

God has made some hard choices on our behalf.. for his own glory... but now the past is the past and will never be recreated again.

God has fulfilled his promises... he just hasn't told us how he did them yet and all will be revealed when we meet him face to face in heaven. Just like Jesus fulfilled all the promises of the Old Testament and the Jews have not accepted Jesus and are still looking for their fulfillment.

In the mean time... what are you doing for the Lord except arguing constantly about something that is not in your power to make come about?

God prepared things for you to do from the foundation of the world!... get busy doing them or get out of the way... because those are your only two choices.

(Yes, this compressed history is very abbreviated, I did not include Isaac or Jacob, etc... but all the major points are there).
 

HisServant

New member
Spurgeon had the same take I have on dispensationalists.

Distinctions have been drawn by certain exceedingly wise men (measured by their own estimate of themselves), between the people of God who lived before the coming of Christ, and those who lived afterwards. We have even heard it asserted that those who lived before the coming of Christ do not belong to the church of God! We never know what we shall hear next, and perhaps it is a mercy that these absurdities are revealed at one time, in order that we may be able to endure their stupidity without dying of amazement. Why, every child of God in every place stands on the same footing; the Lord has not some children best beloved, some second-rate offspring, and others whom he hardly cares about. These who saw Christ's day before it came, had a great difference as to what they knew, and perhaps in the same measure a difference as to what they enjoyed while on earth meditating upon Christ; but they were all washed in the same blood, all redeemed with the same ransom price, and made members of the same body. Israel in the covenant of grace is not natural Israel, but all believers in all ages. Before the first advent, all the types and shadows all pointed one way —they pointed to Christ, and to him all the saints looked with hope. Those who lived before Christ were not saved with a different salvation to that which shall come to us. They exercised faith as we must; that faith struggled as ours struggles, and that faith obtained its reward as ours shall
 

DAN P

Well-known member
If someone can show where the truth of the Bible or God, according to the apostles, finally rests on a view of a future Israel, please do! In Romans, that is never the thing that resolves this problem, or question. The question is resolved in the belief that Christ fulfilled what was promised to Israel/the fathers so that the nations would be able to believe and share in the promises too.


Hi , and lets has your verse for your premise ??

dan p
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
What I see is God having compassion on Adam and Eve during the fall by not executing them and then setting up the entire plan of salvation to teach humans that the knowledge of good an evil does not make them gods.

Then I see God being hands off and watching humans take that knowledge of good and evil and declare themselves as gods, except for Noah, who he deemed righteous and saved him and his family.

Then I see Abraham, who remembered God and served him, whom God once again deemed righteous, but also understood that leaving mankind alone again would yield the same result, so he promised Abraham that his seed would fill the earth.

Then I see God using Abraham's seed as an example before the world that he still existed and what was required for our salvation... as part of the tasks that Israel was to perform God promised them a land until their task was complete (the end of the age).

God sends Jesus as Israel's Messiah to teach them that he existed that that the law was not god in and of itself as the Rabbis had come to believe.

Jesus is crucified, buried and rose from the dead, thereby ending the need for the sacrifices in the temple, defeating Satan and defeating death and then ascending into heaven.

After which the penalty levied on the descendants of Adam and Eve was rescinded and God is now able to live with us again (through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit).

Israels part in God's plan then became obsolete at that point and God made sure that Israels tasks were never again done when he allowed the destruction of the temple in AD70... never to be built again because it would be a grievous sin against the work of his son.

And here we are today, God loves those he has saved and indwelt with his Holy Spirit and has created wondrous works for us to do that he planed from the foundation of the world.

God has made some hard choices on our behalf.. for his own glory... but now the past is the past and will never be recreated again.

God has fulfilled his promises... he just hasn't told us how he did them yet and all will be revealed when we meet him face to face in heaven. Just like Jesus fulfilled all the promises of the Old Testament and the Jews have not accepted Jesus and are still looking for their fulfillment.

In the mean time... what are you doing for the Lord except arguing constantly about something that is not in your power to make come about?

God prepared things for you to do from the foundation of the world!... get busy doing them or get out of the way... because those are your only two choices.

(Yes, this compressed history is very abbreviated, I did not include Isaac or Jacob, etc... but all the major points are there).

"Behold all power in heaven and on earth is given unto Me...go ye therefore and announce the good news to every creature."

In other words I am King of Heaven and Earth.....that's what I said to you...the WHOLE bible is about the King and His Kingdom.

You question me...are you doing what He said to do announcing His kingdom? are you announcing the earthly part as well as the heavenly part?

People won't unnerstan if you only preach the heavenly part, that is all pie in the sky, intangible, mystical. Righteousness, peace and prosperity in the here and now, on earth....that is what the human cry is.

The church has it but is only preaching the hard to grasp part.

What have you been praying these 2,000 years [are you 2,000 years old? :) ] "Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven."
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Spurgeon had the same take I have on dispensationalists.

Dear C. H. was not over fond of the Brethren and JND in particular because of JND's awful treatment of Spurgeon's good friend George Muller of Bristol...who also was a Brethren.

Never the less God's grace was attained by keeping the law in the OT, in the NT it is attained through Christ without the law and ordinances....that is a different dispensation.

God has not changed, His grace has not changed, but the means by which His grace attained has changed.
 

achduke

Active member
Jesus' kingdom is not of the earth... and never will be.

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
 

HisServant

New member
Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Which proves nothing... revelation is jewish apocalyptic writing... it was never written to be taken literally.

Jesus said specifically his Kingdom was not of this earth.... did he lie?
 

achduke

Active member
Which proves nothing... revelation is jewish apocalyptic writing... it was never written to be taken literally.

Jesus said specifically his Kingdom was not of this earth.... did he lie?

Act 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

Is that because he is in heaven in the future or a NEW earth?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Dear C. H. was not over fond of the Brethren and JND in particular because of JND's awful treatment of Spurgeon's good friend George Muller of Bristol...who also was a Brethren.

Never the less God's grace was attained by keeping the law in the OT, in the NT it is attained through Christ without the law and ordinances....that is a different dispensation.

God has not changed, His grace has not changed, but the means by which His grace attained has changed.



Then why is David's forgiveness an example of the blessedness of imputed righteousness in Rom 4? Dispsensations, Phishpensations.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Which proves nothing... revelation is jewish apocalyptic writing... it was never written to be taken literally.

Jesus said specifically his Kingdom was not of this earth.... did he lie?


That means the authority or dynamic of it is not the same as a sword and lots of decrees enforced by the sword. It is still compelling, but it is the Gospel doing the compelling.

Paul wanted those public officials, secular, at his hearing in Acts 26 in Roman admin to live righteous and with self-control.
 
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