The Doctrines of Election, Grace, and God's Sovereignty. What are they?
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
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You are the most confused poster on TOL. Congratulations.
Certainly in the top 3.
genuineoriginal
New member
The Bible is clear enough that we only have the promise of eternal life until Jesus returns, and that the promise is conditional upon us remaining in Christ Jesus until His return.
Once Saved Always Saved is a heresy that has condemned many people to eternal damnation when their names get blotted out from the book of life.
Today is Shishi, Sixth. It is the Third Month the Eighteenth Day. Boker, Morning. Yom, Day.
Not at all. I am a Jew. As a former Christian I understand how Christian Theology does not work.
Do you know about the Doctrines of Election?
Shalom.
Jacob
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Today is Shishi, Sixth. It is the Third Month the Eighteenth Day. Boker, Morning. Yom, Day.
Today is Shishi, Sixth. It is the Third Month the Eighteenth Day. Boker, Morning. Yom, Day.
Check.
Actually, a no to this.
In fact, part of what you say is correct as what needs to be said here, and the other part would be about abiding in Christ.
Do you understand me?
Today is Shishi, Sixth. It is the Third Month the Eighteenth Day. Boker, Morning. Yom, Day.
For a person to be saved they must be born again. Of the Spirit of God. Your first birth was your natural, physical birth, from your Mother's womb. For that which is born of flesh is flesh.
For a person to be saved they must be born again. Of the Spirit of God. Your first birth was your natural, physical birth, from your Mother's womb. For that which is born of flesh is flesh.
ttruscott
Well-known member
These two points are opposites. If you do not believe in once saved always saved then you must believe that you can lose your salvation...If you do not believe that you can lose your salvation, then you must believe that once saved always saved...
Can you explain this...? I will listen.
I do know that what you are saying is not true. However, there are those who do not believe either of these. I encourage you to consider what salvation is. Do you know what it means to be born again? What does it mean to be elect or chosen? Perhaps this requires illumination as people do not correctly understand. Elect in regard to what? Chosen in regard to what? Do you know what it means to be called? Many are called but few are chosen. Is this election or must you heed the call? Those who hear the gospel must respond to it. Meaning repentance and faith in God and Jesus the Messiah, God's Son. Confess your sin to God and to your brothers in Christ. Do deeds appropriate for one who has repented. If the Torah requires you to do something, do it. Obey God and Jesus.
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Body part
That was exactly the point of my original post in this thread.
Jacob is claiming to believe two contradictory things.
GRACE (FALL FROM))( DISQUALIFIED) (FALL SHORT)
Heb 6:10
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Luke 1:50
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Rom 8:27
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
2 Cor 10:4-5
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
1 Cor 11:31
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
John 5:22-23
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Acts 4:12
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:11-14
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Col 2:8
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Gal 5:1-4
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Heb 2:1
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 Cor 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-- unless indeed you are disqualified.
Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Heb 12:15
15 looking diligently lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
Heb 6:10
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Rev 3:15-16
15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
16 "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
(NKJ)
xxThere are so many ways that one can be disqualified, and disciples dont know it. A disciple is a student or beginner in Christianity. Now because someone who has fallen from grace or fallen short or been disqualifed doesnt know it them selves. It is easy for them to lead a disciple down the wrong path. When God has turned a person over to a reprobate mind, the person doesnt have the spiritual knowledge to discern it, and they become the blind leading the blind. Also a hypocrite doesnt know he is a hypocrite. The only evidence of any of this is having less verses now than you had a year ago. Because a christians growth, is in their growing in the Spirit, or in the idea that their still teaching the same thing today that they taught a year ago, if their on the same message. Where is their growth? This is the way to check yourself.
Rev 2:5
5 "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place-- unless you repent.
(NKJ)
Luke 13:2-5
2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things?
3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
(NKJ)
Heb 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
(NKJ)
Jude 1:1-7
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(NKJ)
Rom 11:19-22
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
(NKJ)
Heb 2:1-3
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
(NKJ)
Heb 6:10
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Luke 1:50
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Rom 8:27
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
2 Cor 10:4-5
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
1 Cor 11:31
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
John 5:22-23
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Acts 4:12
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:11-14
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Col 2:8
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Gal 5:1-4
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Heb 2:1
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 Cor 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-- unless indeed you are disqualified.
Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Heb 12:15
15 looking diligently lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;
Heb 6:10
10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Rev 3:15-16
15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
16 "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
(NKJ)
xxThere are so many ways that one can be disqualified, and disciples dont know it. A disciple is a student or beginner in Christianity. Now because someone who has fallen from grace or fallen short or been disqualifed doesnt know it them selves. It is easy for them to lead a disciple down the wrong path. When God has turned a person over to a reprobate mind, the person doesnt have the spiritual knowledge to discern it, and they become the blind leading the blind. Also a hypocrite doesnt know he is a hypocrite. The only evidence of any of this is having less verses now than you had a year ago. Because a christians growth, is in their growing in the Spirit, or in the idea that their still teaching the same thing today that they taught a year ago, if their on the same message. Where is their growth? This is the way to check yourself.
Rev 2:5
5 "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place-- unless you repent.
(NKJ)
Luke 13:2-5
2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things?
3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
4 "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
(NKJ)
Heb 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
(NKJ)
Jude 1:1-7
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(NKJ)
Rom 11:19-22
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
(NKJ)
Heb 2:1-3
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
(NKJ)
genuineoriginal
New member
You can only believe that you can lose your salvation if you believe you have already received your salvation.
According to the following passage, we do not receive the salvation of our souls until the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 1:3-9 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. |
Since that is still a future event, we have not received salvation yet and we cannot lose what we do not have.
No
That is incorrect
Right Divider
Body part
Peter is speaking to the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.
1Pet 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Just like James is:
Jas 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Right Divider
Body part
genuineoriginal
New member
Peter is specifically talking to the elect believers in Jesus Christ, who we call Christians, not to the children of Israel.
1 Peter 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. |
Peter even mentions Silvanus, "a leading member of the Early Christian community, who accompanied Paul the Apostle on parts of his first and second missionary journeys." ~ Wikipedia
1 Peter 5:12-14 12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand. 13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son. 14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen. |
What are you talking about or going on about?
Right Divider
Body part
The elect that Peter is speaking to was Israel. I understand that you prefer Churchianity over truth.
These are the elect to whom Peter was writing:
Isa 45:4 (AKJV/PCE)
(45:4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Peter and Paul are brothers, that does NOT means that God gave them identical callings.