Cruciform
New member
I see. Well, then Post #4498 applies to you as well.
the church
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
you know I dont flick page after page after page in my android app to find your posts.
we can sum this up easily. Here's what you get when you abandon Sola Scriptura.
The popes religion
Orthodox
Mormons
SDA
LDS
Oneness Pentecostals
Charismatics
TD Jakes
Joyce Meyer
Benny Hinn
Nuff said!!!
“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.” Jeremiah 7:18
Even though they lie and say that they are only “venerating” her, the Roman Catholic Church has since the middle 1800’s worshipped Mary from the New Testament. They create idols of her, call her the Queen of Heaven, ascribe all sorts of miracles to her statues and bow down to her in worship. As someone who was raised in the Catholic Church and trained by Jesuits, he can testify that this 100% true. But Pope Francis this past weekend took Mary worship, a sin, to staggering new heights.
more at http://www.amredeemed.com/religious...sus-not-hope-mary-mother-church/#.V7m4zM8pDML
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Cruciform
New member
Yes, I'm familiar with your deliberate and careful avoidance of truth. Here, I'll re-post it for you:
That's funny, here's what you get when you abandon the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Catholic Church:
- tens-of-thousands of recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects and denominations teaching the mere traditions of men
- Mormons
- SDA
- Oneness Pentecostals
- Charismatics
- TD Jakes
- Joyce Meyer
- Benny Hinn
- TulipBee
- Every heresy that's ever come down the pike
(By the way, "LDS" and "Mormons" are the same thing. So much for your supposed "knowledge" of the subject. :doh: )
Now go ahead and cite the relevant paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which supposedly teaches "the worship of Mary" or any other past Saint. Post your proof now.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
yeah right, work my own salvation chasing your posts and sources. lets return back to the bible, alone.
Cruciform
New member
You have yet to demonstrate that sola scriptura is a biblical or Christian teaching, so why in the world would I take such a dubious approach to doctrine? Back to Post #4498.
Merely another Straw Man Fallacy on your part (Ex. 20:16; Prov. 19:5). Once again, you've merely placed your vast ignorance of the Catholic Church and her teachings on public display. :yawn:
(BTW, I'm still waiting for your citation of the Catechism which teaches that Catholics are to "worship" Mary and other past Saints. Where is it?)
you walketh disorderly and been slapped by your own bishops and God, Himself
Hilary of Poitiers and Sola Scriptura
"Hear, I beg you, what the Bible says of Christ, lest what it does not say be preached instead. Bend your ears to what I shall say from the Scriptures."
Liber II, Ad Constantium 10, P. 108
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Cyril of Jerusalem and Sola Scriptura.
"Have thou ever in your mind this seal , which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures."
Catechitical Lectures 4:17
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Athanasius teaching Sola Scriptura.
"If we now consider the scope of that faith which we Christians hold, & using it as a rule, apply ourselves, as the apostle teaches, to the reading of the inspired Scriptures. For Christ's enemies being ignorant of this scope, have wandered from the way of truth, & have stumbled on a stone of stumbling, thinking otherwise than they should think."
Athanasius - - Four Discourses Against the Arians, Discourse 3 Ch. 26.29
"vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faiths sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things. "
Athanasius - - Nicene Post Nicene Father's, Vol 4 Councils of Ariminum and Selecta, Part 1 History of the Councils, 6
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"Therefore in proof of all the words we utter when teaching, we ought to produce the doctrine of Scripture as confirming the doctrine we utter. For, as all the gold that is without the temple is not sanctified, so every doctrine that is not in the divine Scripture, although it seem admirable to some, is not sacred, because it is not comprehended within the doctrine of Scripture, which sanctifies that doctrine alone which it contains within itself."
Origen--In Mattheaum Commentorium series 18
Origen, what about the pope? You keep teaching*Sola Scriptura*and forgetting to mention the pope.
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Some verses that teach Sola Scriptura.
Eph 2:20 "the foundation of the church is the prophets and apostles."
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
2 Thess 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
Luke 10:16 "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me;"
Acts 2:42 "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine."
Gal 1:8-10 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Cruciform
New member
TB, not a single patristic quotation you posted here in any way actually teaches sola scriptura. Rather, they merely affirm what all Catholics affirm, that is, the basic divine authority of Scripture---not that ONLY the Scriptures are authoritative. Sorry, but you simply can't shoehorn your 16th-century doctrinal invention into the beliefs and teachings of the early Church Fathers. Don't bother.
(BTW, I'm still waiting for your citation of the Catechism which teaches that Catholics are to "worship" Mary and other past Saints. Where is it?)
(BTW, I'm still waiting for your citation of the Catechism which teaches that Catholics are to "worship" Mary and other past Saints. Where is it?)
Here is an offical Roman prayer to Mary. Those who have elevated Mary to a level above a sinner saved by Grace, please read this prayer and address the questions I have if you are willing:
"O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every grace that God grants us in our misery; it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if*they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul. Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the evil spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee. I fear only that through my own negligence I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance and the grace to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help. "
1. When the prayer says to Mary " In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul." If Jesus Christ is the perfect savior that Catholics claim to believe, why would eternal salvation be entrusted to Mary?
2. The the prayer says to Mary: " I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission" - If Jesus obtains our Pardon and remission of our sins, then why would Mary also need to do this?
This devotion to Mary, and the claim that Catholics who pray this prayer entrust to her salvation, is the reason why Catholics are often accused of worshiping Mary.
"O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every grace that God grants us in our misery; it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if*they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul. Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the evil spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee. I fear only that through my own negligence I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance and the grace to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help. "
1. When the prayer says to Mary " In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul." If Jesus Christ is the perfect savior that Catholics claim to believe, why would eternal salvation be entrusted to Mary?
2. The the prayer says to Mary: " I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission" - If Jesus obtains our Pardon and remission of our sins, then why would Mary also need to do this?
This devotion to Mary, and the claim that Catholics who pray this prayer entrust to her salvation, is the reason why Catholics are often accused of worshiping Mary.
Cruciform
New member
Given that Catholic teaching in no way "elevates Mary to a level above a sinner saved by grace," I followed your instructions by not bothering to reply to the rest of your post.
Also, I'm still waiting for your citation of the Catechism which teaches that Catholics are to "worship" Mary and other past Saints. Where is it?)
reyjun moncada
New member
i think rcc is ""Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.Mk.7:13..
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
It's an absolute idolatrous masterpiece from Satan.
That is an absolutely ridiculous post, and it demonstrates your total ignorance of Catholic doctrines and beliefs.
Spare us your ignorant hysterics.
Oh,and by the way, regarding your little neg rep calling me a Romanm: I'm an American. I've never been to Rome you idiot.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
A brief excerpt from "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth"
(source link):
QUOTE:
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)
Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.
Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.
The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.
Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.
FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.
The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.
The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.
Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth
Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.
The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).
Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.
END EXCERPT QUOTE
What about Calvinism?
It's not that they "are to" - They do.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
yes, anyone with common sense can see that they do.
No amount of verbiage on their part can change it.
Even if Catholics do, which Catholics do not, as I concede nothing, then Catholics are disobeying the Church. Why is that the Church's fault? If the Church teaches one thing and Catholics do another, how is it the Church's teachings that are at fault? :liberals:
They're not.
the church teaches praying to Mary
Cruciform
New member
I think precisely the same about the Protestant sects.