ECT The Calvinist 5 Solas

[ttruscott]

The elect were chosen to receive salvation from their sin. The non-elect were left in their sin.

Well now, the problem is that they were elected and passed over for election for NO condition found in them BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD WHICH TIME ACCORDING TO CALVINISM WAS BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN CREATED!!!

This means they were set for hell before they ever sinned ! Also, there was no reason to leave them in their sins if no condition was found in them to make that righteous, loving and just. So at a time before they ever sinned GOD determined who would end in hell and then created them to end in hell even though there was no impediment found in them for their salvation but only HIS desire to see them in hell.

This cannot be reconciled with HIS character as loving, righteous and just!!

Out of curiosity, what do you think salvation is in your theological framework?

Salvation is the fulfillment of HIS promise of election that, as sinners, they would be conformed to HIS Son and would be HIS Bride in the heavenly marriage. It is totally by HIS free gift of grace thru faith, not works.

 

[ttruscott]

Calvinism teaches that "all" were made sinners as a result of Adam's sin and not just "many." The word "many" must have the same meaning both times it is used at verse 19 and it is certain that "many" but not "all" will be made righteous.

Do you agree?

My interlinear claims that the word is many and it is the same in both places in this verse. I do not accept universal salvation.

I do not agree that we inherit anything of sin nor guilt from Adam but only death because we were sinners...already. All are included in Adam's death so Christ needs to die only once for all HE died for, not over and over for each person consecutively.

 

[ttruscott]

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; (Ro.5:12).

How does sin enter with Adam into the world when he was the third person to sin in the world??? It must have entered with him as the first sinner to be sowed, not created, into this world as per Matt 13:236-39. Calvinists are great at demanding where certain words such as free will are found in the bible but then base their whole ideology on the missing words, federal headship, sigh. Federal headship is not only not in the scripture but as a doctrine it conflicts with various scriptures which cannot be reconciled, only ignored.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How does sin enter with Adam into the world when he was the third person to sin in the world???

Why did you ignore my question and then only quote a part of the verse which I quoted?

What kind of "death" do you think is being referred to in the following verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

I do not agree that we inherit anything of sin nor guilt from Adam but only death because we were sinners...already.

What kind of death and in what way were we already sinners?

 

[Clete]

My interlinear claims that the word is many and it is the same in both places in this verse. I do not accept universal salvation.

I do not agree that we inherit anything of sin nor guilt from Adam but only death because we were sinners...already. All are included in Adam's death so Christ needs to die only once for all HE died for, not over and over for each person consecutively.

How do you reconcile this with Romans 5 - 7...

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation...


Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.


13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Where does this "flesh", that Paul speaks of, come from if not Adam?

And, if "the flesh" is not a sinful nature, "at work in our members" then why are we mortal from birth?

Clete

 

[Clete]

How does sin enter with Adam into the world when he was the third person to sin in the world???

Well, that's just exactly the point, right?!

I mean, why pick on Adam? He wasn't the first to sin so how is it that sin didn't enter through Eve?

The bible makes it really super clear that sin didn't enter through Eve but through Adam in spite of the fact that Eve sinned before Adam and so the question we should be asking isn't "whether" but "why".


The Catholics have a dogma that states the Mary's conception was "emaculate", which is to say that they believe that Mary was born free from original sin (most also believe that she was also free from personal sin as well) and thus could conceive Christ without passing on the sin nature. The problem with this nonsense is not only that it is not consistent with the biblical record but that is doesn't solve the problem. At best it only moves the problem back one generation. If Jesus' mother had to be emaculately conceived then why wouldn't Mary's mother have to have been likewise emaculately conceived and her mother before her and so on all the way back to Eve?

Well, it turns out, going all the way back to Eve is where you find the solution to the problem because Paul tells us that sin entered through Adam, not Eve. Eve came from Adam, not Adam from Eve. Thus, had Adam refused the forbidden fruit, God could have dealt with Eve on the spot and created another companion for Adam in the same fashion that He created Eve. Adam is the source of all mankind and it wasn't until Adam fell that mankind's fallen nature was assured. Thus, it is through one's father that one's nature is passed, whether holy or fallen. This is why, for example, it was the father who named his children and why to this day, it is the father's sir name that is passed to the children and not the mother's maiden name. So we who have Earthly, fallen fathers inherit the sin nature but Christ, who had no Earthly father, did not inherit the fallen nature but rather the divine nature of His Father (note that is was God who gave His Son the name 'Jesus').

Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

Well, that's just exactly the point, right?!

I mean, why pick on Adam? He wasn't the first to sin so how is it that sin didn't enter through Eve?

The bible makes it really super clear that sin didn't enter through Eve but through Adam in spite of the fact that Eve sinned before Adam and so the question we should be asking isn't "whether" but "why".


The Catholics have a dogma that states the Mary's conception was "emaculate", which is to say that they believe that Mary was born free from original sin (most also believe that she was also free from personal sin as well) and thus could conceive Christ without passing on the sin nature. The problem with this nonsense is not only that it is not consistent with the biblical record but that is doesn't solve the problem. At best it only moves the problem back one generation. If Jesus' mother had to be emaculately conceived then why wouldn't Mary's mother have to have been likewise emaculately conceived and her mother before her, so on all the way back to Eve and that totally leaves out all the father's!

Well, it turns out, going all the way back to Eve is where you find the solution to the problem because Paul tells us that sin entered through Adam, not Eve. It is through one's father that one's nature is passed, whether holy or fallen. Thus we who have Earthly, fallen fathers inherit the sin nature but Christ, who had no Earthly father, did not inherit the fallen nature but rather the divine nature of His Father.

Clete

In addition, Mary even called Jesus her Savior. (Luke 1:47)

One doesn't need a savior if they don't need saving. Which means she wasn't immaculate, and so the whole doctrine goes out the window.

 

[Clete]

In addition, Mary even called Jesus her Savior. (Luke 1:47)

One doesn't need a savior if they don't need saving. Which means she wasn't immaculate, and so the whole doctrine goes out the window.

Yes, exactly!

That's just what I had in mind when I mentioned that the Catholic dogma was not consistent with the biblical record. I couldn't remember the verse, though.

Mary also had several other children and so not only was she not sinless but she didn't remain a virgin her whole life either.

Catholics believe realy stupid stuff.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And, if "the flesh" is not a sinful nature, "at work in our members" then why are we mortal from birth?

All people, including Adam and Eve, are or were created with a mortal body. People die physically because they no longer have access to the very thing which would allow them to live for ever--the tree of life (Gen.3:22-24).

 

[ttruscott]

Why did you ignore my question and then only quote a part of the verse which I quoted?

There are many reasons I do not answer every point in every post - some because I agree with them some because of the anti-gad fly effect, sometimes the Spirit does not move me to answer, etc...I don't remember.

What kind of "death" do you think is being referred to in the following verse?: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Death is death: it means separation. Death of the body happens when the spirit of the person leaves the body. Eternal death of the spirit happens when GOD leaves the person alone. The death here seems to refer to bodily death only.

...in what way were we already sinners?

The short intro:
The concept of inherited sin is too blasphemous for me to countenance, just too outside of anything GOD would do to HIS creation let alone HIS Bride but since it is written we are sinners all at birth/conception I have come to accept our pre-conception existence as the only reconciliation. When we are sown, not created, into the world, Matt 13:36-39, we are sinners already: the sinful believers who are not (never) condemned (aka the good seed) must be redeemed and the unbelieving sinners (the tares) are condemned already, John 3:18, at conception. All of mankind had already chosen before their conception into mankind to become sinful in HIS sight by a free will decision to rebel against HIM as GOD (the Satanic fall) or against HIS plans for HIS creation (the fall of the elect). All are sinners at birth means to me: Only sinners are born on earth.

 

[ttruscott]

Where does this "flesh", that Paul speaks of, come from if not Adam?
And, if "the flesh" is not a sinful nature, "at work in our members" then why are we mortal from birth?
Clete

I agree the death of infants proves they are sinful from birth but I reject we got our sinful nature from Adam contending that we self created our sinful nature in ourselves by a free will pre-earth rebellion to GOD. We had no need to inherit Adam's sin, a most blasphemous proposition anyway, to be sinful at birth IF we sinned in the Spirit world by our free will before being sown, not created, into the world, Matt 13:36-39.

 

[Bright Raven]

See, here's where your problem is, Nang.

"Become" (in any tense, in any language) is a CHANGE word.

Meaning it contradicts "immutability" by definition.

Jesus, God the Son, the Logos, BECAME flesh.

Meaning he changed. Therefore, by definition, he cannot be immutable.

Hebrews 13:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[ttruscott]

The bible makes it really super clear that sin didn't enter through Eve but through Adam in spite of the fact that Eve sinned before Adam and so the question we should be asking isn't "whether" but "why".

IF the premise of our creation changed to believe that we were created before the creation of the physical universe (which we all saw, Job 38:7) and that before that creation some sinned needing to be redeemed and others sinned the unforgivable sin and only THEN was the physical universe was created and we were moved to Sheol in the centre of the earth,

IF, I say, all this was accepted, then the interpretation of WHY we are sinners at birth would be moot and all the verses used to to convince ourselves that we inherit Adam's sin would be fitted into our a priori belief in our pre-earth creation...the same way we now force other verses to support our being created on earth as sinners, even though this is a blasphemy.

So, to use all the verses that depend upon our theology of being created on earth to shed the light on the question why? is just another eisegesis of forcing the created on earth theory onto the verses about how it is all Adam's fault.

But please consider:
First, even if Adam's sin was our first sin and we are guilty and die for that sin (against Ezek 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent...) GOD is responsible of our being created sinners by Adam because 1. HE did not have to create us in solidarity with Adam, it was HIS choice and 2. HE did not have to force us to inherit Adam's sin which means all the arguments against GOD NOT being the creator or evil are bogus. Yet poisonous water does not flow from the well of life giving water and thorns do not grow on grape vines., No, it is not GOD who is poisonous but this evil doctrine.

Second, there is no reason, not even a bad reason, for HIM to create anyone evil but especially would HE never create HIS Bride evil in Adam. HE hates evil and it must be eradicated before HE can fulfill HIS purpose for our creation, HIS marriage to us in the heavenly state. Light cannot create dark because light destroys dark by its essence as light. Love cannot create evil as it destroys evil by its essence as love.

All suggestions HE creates evil is a blasphemy against HIS loving, righteous and just nature.

Third, if we do not choose evil by our free will then we cannot be held guilty for that evil. No one is guilty of a crime they are forced to do by another person whether the force is from Adam or GOD. To claim GOD makes us evil by making us inherit Adam's sin then killing us for that sinful thing we inherited for him is just too ugly and perverted to contemplate. It goes against everything GOD has revealed about HIS nature but it allows us to think we are created on earth which has been chosen as more important than that we should worship the GOD who hates evil and does not create it by any means, even Adam.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Death is death: it means separation. Death of the body happens when the spirit of the person leaves the body. Eternal death of the spirit happens when GOD leaves the person alone. The death here seems to refer to bodily death only.

Let us look at the verse again:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Men do not die physically because they sin. The reason men die is because they they no longer have access to the very thing which would allow them to live for ever--the tree of life (Gen.3:22-24).

The "death" spoken about at Romans 5:12 is "spiritual" death, the separation of the soul from the source of Spiritual life, the LORD God. That is the "death" which Paul referred to at Ephesians 2:1.

Since "all men" die spiritually when they sin that can only mean that at one time "all men" were alive spiritually. After all, the word "death" means the end of life. And the only way that "all men" can be alive spiritually is because they all emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

And that completely destroys the theory of "Original Sin."

 

[Nang]

Hebrews 13:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Amen!

 

[JudgeRightly]

Hebrews 13:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

So Jesus, God the Son, did not become a man, and remained the same as He had been for all of eternity, a spirit? Or did He become a man (change)?

In other words, are you going to take the verse woodenly literally, or are you going to consider the context of the verse in it's entirety, which shows God the Son changing?

 

[Bright Raven]

So Jesus, God the Son, did not become a man, and remained the same as He had been for all of eternity, a spirit? Or did He become a man (change)?

In other words, are you going to take the verse woodenly literally, or are you going to consider the context of the verse in it's entirety, which shows God the Son changing?

Argue with Scripture. What does it say?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Argue with Scripture. What does it say?

Don't dodge the questions, BR.

Are you going to take scripture woodenly literally?

Or are you going to read the verse you quoted within the context of the whole Bible?

Did Jesus, God the Son, become a man? Or did He not become a man, but remain only a spirit?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did Jesus, God the Son, become a man? Or did He not become a man, but remain only a spirit?

Can anyone see the face of a spirit?:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.22:3-4).​

 

[JudgeRightly]

Can anyone see the face of a spirit?:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads" (Rev.24:3-4).​

Did you forget?

Jesus is the image of the invisible God.