The Burning Bush

[Ben Masada]

Its called referring to what is written in scripture. Paul refers to himself as a Jew...not a Christian.You can't impress your worldview into this scriptural fact.

Jewish Replacement Theology.

Hebrews is aptly named for the Hebrew scripture to which it refers...and that is as a Triune God.

The term 'gospel' means 'the good news of Jesus Christ as our Savior'. So...again...rightly so...

Yes, like the "Jews-for-Baal" at the time of Elijah, Paul would refer to himself as a Jew perhaps to delude himself with the idea that he was still a Jew after he founded an anti-Jewish religion aka Christianity in the city of Antioch. Read Acts 11:26. According to our tradition when a Jew deserts Judaism to join another religion, he or she is no longer a Jew. He knew it but faith is always the last to go.

 

[Ben Masada]

There is quite a bit of debate at this board about whether Christianity is a wholly different religion from Judaism, or not. Also about when/who created the split.

There was no split. Christianity was organized already as Christianity. The impression it gives that Christianity came out of Judaism is confused by the fact that Paul's main activities in the formation of his church was to overturn the Nazarene synagogues into Christian churches. He was unable to raise a church from scratch with Gentiles only. He fit the Cuckoo bird who robs other bird's nests to lay his own eggs in them.

For my part, it certainly appears that Jesus did not create a new religion, but was rather seeking a reformation within Judaism.

Jesus was a loyal Jew who never had any thing to do with Christianity. He never even dreamed Christianity would ever rise.

His core teachings include (1)an abrogation of the vast and unwieldy body of case law (much of Oral Law) that had been added to Torah, (2) an elevation of the Rabbi and the obsolence of the corrupt priesthood,(3) a vastly simplified way of interpreting Torah (e.g. according to intended results),(4) a dereliction of patriarchal genealogies for the purpose of establishing Jewish blood, (being replaced by a system of judging on merit as regards Torah observance), and (5) the abrogation of the entire sacrificial system, in favor of a once-for-all sacrifice.

So much so that he declared to have come to fulfill the Law down to the letter, even the dot of the letter and to warn us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Mat. 5:17-19 and Luke 16:29-31)

As for Paul, his teachings to Gentiles do not appear to me to be a new invention, either, but rather a restatement (albeit an unnecessarily verbose and complex restatement) of the traditional teachings regarding goyim upholding righteousness. There is some blurriness between Jesus' (4) above and Paul's teachings, and I am not sure whether to attribute that to Paul by design, or to put it down to a corruption of his teachings by his followers after his death.

The blurriness between Jesus' and Paul's teachings were as opposite to each other as darkness is before light. They taught two different gospels. Jesus the Tanach and Paul the NT. And when the sun of Paul rose, the sun of Jesus had set already over about 30 years. It means they never saw each other.

 

[Apple7]

Yes, like the "Jews-for-Baal" at the time of Elijah, Paul would refer to himself as a Jew perhaps to delude himself with the idea that he was still a Jew after he founded an anti-Jewish religion aka Christianity in the city of Antioch. Read Acts 11:26. According to our tradition when a Jew deserts Judaism to join another religion, he or she is no longer a Jew. He knew it but faith is always the last to go.

If you are going to repeatedly refer to Acts, then at least be adult enough to quote from Acts, what Paul believed in, before casting him under the bus...

But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, Acts 24.14

So...

Your insistence that Paul was something other than a Jew...is, well, a figment of your imagination.

In fact, Paul slams your rejection of God...

 

[Ben Masada]

If you are going to repeatedly refer to Acts, then at least be adult enough to quote from Acts, what Paul believed in, before casting him under the bus...But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, Acts 24.14.

So...Your insistence that Paul was something other than a Jew...is, well, a figment of your imagination. In fact, Paul slams your rejection of God...

Okay Apple, be my guest! If you read Genesis 17:19, the circumcision was commanded by HaShem as an everlasting covenant with Abraham's seed. If according to Acts 24:14 Paul claimed that he believed all things according to the Law and the Prophets, why would he preach to the Jews in the Diaspora to stop circumcising their children and abandon the Jewish customs? That's in Acts 21:21. Doesn't it sound like a lie to you?

Hear another one: Jesus warned us all to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Why would Paul claim that the Law had been abolished on the cross and that Jesus had been the end of the Law? (Romans 10:4; Ephesians 2:15) Who was lying here, Jesus or Paul? So, who is the one not being adult enough here, myself or Paul? Besides, Jesus said that the Law will remain until heaven and earth pass away. (Mat. 5:17-19)

Paul used to teach that as a widow was released from the law of subjection to her husband with his death, we were released from the Law with the death of Jesus. (Romans 7:1-6) Well, no matter how long heaven and earth would exist? If I continue bringing these things up, I'll end up writing here the whole of the NT aka the gospel of Paul. Wasn't the man some thing!

 

[Apple7]

Okay Apple, be my guest! If you read Genesis 17:19, the circumcision was commanded by HaShem as an everlasting covenant with Abraham's seed. If according to Acts 24:14 Paul claimed that he believed all things according to the Law and the Prophets, why would he preach to the Jews in the Diaspora to stop circumcising their children and abandon the Jewish customs? That's in Acts 21:21. Doesn't it sound like a lie to you?

Another name and a number is the best that you can google?

Let's look, in context, at how you lamely attempt to throw your Jewish brother, Paul, under the bus, yet again...


And they were informed about you, that you teach falling away from Moses, telling all the Jews throughout the nations not to circumcise their children, nor to walk in the customs. What then is it? At all events, a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come. Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves; taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law. And as to the believing nations, we joined in writing, judging them to observe no such thing, except to keep themselves from both idol sacrifice, and the blood, and a thing strangled, and from fornication. Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them.
Acts 21.21 - 26


Cleary, and irrefutably, this passage shows that Paul said nothing regarding Jews abandoning tradition.

Paul squelched the rumors by taking part in the purification ceremony.


Again, and again, you cannot seem to cherry-pick your way out of your dilemma.

Face the facts.

Paul was a Jew.

The fact that you deny this tells us that you, yourself, are not a true Jew.

 

[Nick M]

Who knew that Moses, inspired by the Holy Spirit would get scripture wrong.

 

[beameup]

I would say that Replacement Theology was a creation of Paul as the NT is all about; unless interpolations were added by the Fathers of the Church as pious forgery which was so common in the 4th Century.

Read Romans chapters 9, 10 & 11, and get back to me.
"replacement" (permanent) is not the same as "set aside" (temporary).

PS: What happened to your commission to "be a light unto the Gentiles"? Weren't you supposed to be out there teaching your NoHide Laws to your fellow humans?

 

[Wick Stick]

The fact that you deny this tells us that you, yourself, are not a true Jew.

You know who else isn't a true Jew? Most of the people who ever claimed to be Jewish.

Israel was born from Egypt a bastard nation full of Edomites, Midianites, Egyptians, Moabites, and various other hanger-onners who weren't descendants of Jacob. Israel's entire history, from conception onwards, is replete with evidence that only a tiny percentage of all the people in Israel, were actually from Israel.

Jesus taught that we could tell who the people were actually descended from by looking at how they acted. "You do the deeds of your father." Based on the deeds of Israel, I would have to agree with Jesus - there are a lot more children of the devil than children of promise that are wearing the name 'Jew.'

 

[Ben Masada]

Read Romans chapters 9, 10 & 11, and get back to me.
"replacement" (permanent) is not the same as "set aside" (temporary).

PS: What happened to your commission to "be a light unto the Gentiles"? Weren't you supposed to be out there teaching your NoHide Laws to your fellow humans?

Paul meant that Replacement Theology was to be a permanent reform. He made a mistake though. He did not count with a strong Jewish feedback as I am exercising my commission to be light unto the Gentiles although Jesus warned his disciples not to take the gospel of salvation unto the Gentiles which I could never understand why, considering Isaiah 42:6. (Mat. 10:4)

 

[Ben Masada]

Who knew that Moses, inspired by the Holy Spirit would get scripture wrong.

Would you mind to quote what you mean? Show me where Moses went wrong. I may have a word or two to explain what you mean.

 

[Ben Masada]

Another name and a number is the best that you can google? Let's look, in context, at how you lamely attempt to throw your Jewish brother, Paul, under the bus, yet again.

Your hostile defense of Paul has become an evidence that he was indeed wrong in what he did.

And they were informed about you, that you teach falling away from Moses, telling all the Jews throughout the nations not to circumcise their children, nor to walk in the customs. What then is it? At all events, a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come. Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves; taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law. And as to the believing nations, we joined in writing, judging them to observe no such thing, except to keep themselves from both idol sacrifice, and the blood, and a thing strangled, and from fornication. Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them. Acts 21.21 - 26.

What James did to protect Paul from the Jewish authorities was terribly unbecoming. But I assume he did that with the intent to get rid of Paul peacefully, but Paul was not in the same mind. What James did was to suggest an act of hypocrisy to Paul to show that he could mislead the Jewish eyes in the Temple to think
that Paul, if not by any other reason, had converted back to Judaism. Paul accepted to act falsely in the hope to make a fool of the Jewish authorities in the Temple. But God is not to mock. No local Jew identified Paul in the Temple but the Lord had inspired Jews from Asia to be present for the festival and they identified Paul. Paul was arrested, he appealed to Caesar, was taken to Rome and that was the last of him in Israel because he lived the rest of his life in Rome.

Cleary, and irrefutably, this passage shows that Paul said nothing regarding Jews abandoning tradition. Paul squelched the rumors by taking part in the purification ceremony. Again, and again, you cannot seem to cherry-pick your way out of your dilemma. Face the facts. Paul was a Jew. The fact that you deny this tells us that you, yourself, are not a true Jew.

The opposite was rather true since the Jewish authorities had rather collected all the evidences that Paul was indeed causing a havoc among the Jews in the Diaspora, teaching against "Moses", the Law and the Jewish customs.

 

[Apple7]

Your hostile defense of Paul has become an evidence that he was indeed wrong in what he did.

The very scripture that you presented for your position proves otherwise, as I showed you in context...

The opposite was rather true since the Jewish authorities had rather collected all the evidences that Paul was indeed causing a havoc among the Jews in the Diaspora, teaching against "Moses", the Law and the Jewish customs.

No...but if you could perhaps bring forth some scriptures for your repeated assertions, that would be adult of you....and in context, naturally...

 

[beameup]

Paul meant that Replacement Theology was to be a permanent reform. He made a mistake though. He did not count with a strong Jewish feedback as I am exercising my commission to be light unto the Gentiles although Jesus warned his disciples not to take the gospel of salvation unto the Gentiles which I could never understand why, considering Isaiah 42:6. (Mat. 10:4)

Haven't you noticed that the NATION of ISRAEL is there in the Middle-East?
To Constantine in the 4th century, it might have looked dismal for Palestine
to be regained by the Jewish diaspora. The State Church of Rome came up with
the doctrine of "Replacement". Paul was simply exercising the commission to
be a "light unto the Gentiles". The NATION of ISRAEL failed to participate,
preferring to be a flunky to the Roman Emperor instead. There was a "window
of opportunity" from 32AD-70AD for Israel to "wake-up" and obey God, but
they failed to do so. Now, Israel has been given a second-chance beginning in 1948.

 

[Apple7]

You know who else isn't a true Jew? Most of the people who ever claimed to be Jewish.

Israel was born from Egypt a bastard nation full of Edomites, Midianites, Egyptians, Moabites, and various other hanger-onners who weren't descendants of Jacob. Israel's entire history, from conception onwards, is replete with evidence that only a tiny percentage of all the people in Israel, were actually from Israel.

Jesus taught that we could tell who the people were actually descended from by looking at how they acted. "You do the deeds of your father." Based on the deeds of Israel, I would have to agree with Jesus - there are a lot more children of the devil than children of promise that are wearing the name 'Jew.'

Agreed.

 

[Ben Masada]

The very scripture that you presented for your position proves otherwise, as I showed you in context...

No...but if you could perhaps bring forth some scriptures for your repeated assertions, that would be adult of you....and in context, naturally...

Be my guest! Acts 21:21. Unless you think James was lying.

 

[Ben Masada]

Haven't you noticed that the NATION of ISRAEL is there in the Middle-East?
To Constantine in the 4th century, it might have looked dismal for Palestine to be regained by the Jewish diaspora. The State Church of Rome came up with the doctrine of "Replacement". Paul was simply exercising the commission to be a "light unto the Gentiles". The NATION of ISRAEL failed to participate, preferring to be a flunky to the Roman Emperor instead. There was a "window of opportunity" from 32AD-70AD for Israel to "wake-up" and obey God, but they failed to do so. Now, Israel has been given a second-chance beginning in 1948.

I tend to agree that most of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology was effected by the Church of around the 4th Century. Paul's actions though as being the light to the Gentiles was concerned was 98% among the Jews. All his life from his first station in Damascus and until his last in Rome, he never left the Jews in peace as if Gentiles were to be found in the synagogues of the Jews. (Acts 9:1,2 and 28:17)

 

[Apple7]

Be my guest! Acts 21:21. Unless you think James was lying.

And they were informed about you, that you teach falling away from Moses, telling all the Jews throughout the nations not to circumcise their children, nor to walk in the customs. What then is it? At all events, a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come. Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves; taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law. And as to the believing nations, we joined in writing, judging them to observe no such thing, except to keep themselves from both idol sacrifice, and the blood, and a thing strangled, and from fornication. Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them.
Acts 21.21 - 26


Cleary, and irrefutably, this passage shows that Paul said nothing regarding Jews abandoning tradition.

Paul squelched the rumors by taking part in the purification ceremony.

 

[Ben Masada]

And they were informed about you, that you teach falling away from Moses, telling all the Jews throughout the nations not to circumcise their children, nor to walk in the customs. What then is it? At all events, a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come. Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves; taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law. And as to the believing nations, we joined in writing, judging them to observe no such thing, except to keep themselves from both idol sacrifice, and the blood, and a thing strangled, and from fornication. Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them.
Acts 21.21 - 26


Cleary, and irrefutably, this passage shows that Paul said nothing regarding Jews abandoning tradition.

Paul squelched the rumors by taking part in the purification ceremony.

You are repeating your post thinking that I either did not read the original one or did not understand it. Reading throughout the Letters of Paul to the churches, I have all I need to agree that James was right in all that he said about what Paul was doing among the Jews in the Diaspora. James was rather prophetically trying to prevent Paul from being arrested in the Temple. It didn't help though. Paul was arrested, taken to Rome for having appealed to Caesar and died without ever having met the Emperor.

 

[Apple7]

You are repeating your post thinking that I either did not read the original one or did not understand it. Reading throughout the Letters of Paul to the churches, I have all I need to agree that James was right in all that he said about what Paul was doing among the Jews in the Diaspora. James was rather prophetically trying to prevent Paul from being arrested in the Temple. It didn't help though. Paul was arrested, taken to Rome for having appealed to Caesar and died without ever having met the Emperor.

Again...

We are looking for something other than a name and a number and your unreferenced opinion.

 

[Ben Masada]

Again...

We are looking for something other than a name and a number and your unreferenced opinion.

That's alright. I don't get offended that easy.