Theology Club: The Body of Christ and the Dispensation of Grace

glorydaz

Well-known member
And yet Paul is also the one to tell us we are not under the law.

I think Paul explains how we are not under the PENALTY of the Law. The Law, itself, is the standard for all righteousness. We keep it fully through loving God and our neighbor as ourselves.

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The righteousness fit for God’s kingdom is purity from the inside out, which isn’t a direct result of obeying laws; it’s the result of refinement through godly love. That's something only God can do.

I like that...it's being conformed into the image of the Son.

Proverbs 25:4
Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.
 

Lighthouse

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Um, no. I didn’t die…
It was a metaphor; not intended to be taken literally.:doh:

Do you read the Bible like that?

Besides, I still feel I was correct in my appraisal that you are presenting contradictory ideas (evidence below).
We shall see.

These statements above are contradictory. Either “He expects us to be obedient to the law” or “we are not expected to keep the law.”
Stop ignoring what I've actually said.

He desires us to do what is right; even expects us to. However, He does not expect us to be capable of always doing what is right; He knows we will sometimes fail, which is why Christ died in the first place, because we can't be perfect without Him.

Love is love. It doesn’t matter why we love as long as it is genuine love. If we genuinely love because God tells us to (i.e. “obey the law”), it’s still genuine love. If we genuinely love because it’s right, it’s still genuine love. And whether we love out of obedience to the law or because it is right—which sounds like the same thing to me, anyway—when we love, we obey the law.
Nope. I don't love because I'm told to. It's not an obligation. I do it because He first loved me, and that love pours out from me.

And yet even when I don't feel like it, even when I hate someone, I still love them. Why? Not because God demands it, but because I should. And it is only through Him that I can do so, because left to my own devices I could not love those I hated.

Cool. So what do you think Paul means by us not being under the law, considering he tells us that we should obey God’s law? God, through Paul, commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves (Rom. 13:8-11; Gal. 5:13-14). We are told that we are to owe no one anything, but we are expected to love one another because this fulfills the law. So, in essence, we are expected to obey and fulfill the law through our love for one another. Yet, we are not under the law. What does it mean to not be under the law and still obey it through love?
That is not Paul telling us to obey the law. The law, while based on the idea that love perpetuates these actions, never commanded, nor even required, us to love anyone. Paul is telling us, as Jesus said, that if we love God and one another then we will do the things in the law as a result.

You don't think the law is written in our heart? I believe it is...the Royal Law of Love from which all the law and prophets hang.
Why would something which we are not under be written on our hearts?

Colossians 2:10-12
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And here you have shown something at the core of the issue, we are not required to keep the law, for not only are we not required to be physically circumcised but to be so profits us absolutely nothing in our relationship with God.

I think Paul explains how we are not under the PENALTY of the Law. The Law, itself, is the standard for all righteousness. We keep it fully through loving God and our neighbor as ourselves.

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
No, God is the standard of righteousness. The law was a guideline, and a tutor, nothing more.

And none of us keep the law to the fullest extent, anyway. We are not all physically circumcised, and those who are usually are not so because of the law. We do not observe the Sabbath. We eat pork and shellfish. Shall I go on?
 
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surrender

New member
It was a metaphor; not intended to be taken literally.

Do you read the Bible like that?
Yeah, I know it was a metaphor. And I didn’t “die” metaphorically, either. Metaphorically connecting jumping to conclusions to jumping to one’s death is a bit exaggerated.

Done, until there is a genuine apology and that abuse is edited out.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Lighthouse, if you would like to participate in the Theology Club forums you are going to have to avoid calling people names.

I have read what Surrender posted and he seems to be asking honest questions and making an honest attempt at a conversation. You need to return the favor.
 

Lighthouse

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Lighthouse, if you would like to participate in the Theology Club forums you are going to have to avoid calling people names.

I have read what Surrender posted and he seems to be asking honest questions and making an honest attempt at a conversation. You need to return the favor.
I apologize. I forgot this was in the theology club. I even thought about that before I commented; I should have checked. I'm sorry.
 

Sherman

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Cool. So what do you think Paul means by us not being under the law, considering he tells us that we should obey God’s law? God, through Paul, commands us to love our neighbor as ourselves (Rom. 13:8-11; Gal. 5:13-14). We are told that we are to owe no one anything, but we are expected to love one another because this fulfills the law. So, in essence, we are expected to obey and fulfill the law through our love for one another. Yet, we are not under the law. What does it mean to not be under the law and still obey it through love?

Honest questions and not stupid ones as far as I can see. I can see how this can be a conundrum. Let see if I can be of any help in answering your questions.

When we become a Christian our love of God does shape our conduct. Is is a natural course of things. God is love and when we become a Christian we receive the Holy Spirit as a seal.

Ephesians 1:13----<sup class="versenum"> </sup>In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

That means we actually have the third person of the trinity as an influence in our lives. He can, if we listen to His prompting in our conscience, shape our behavior. When we become a Christian we are a new creature. A transformation has taken place.

Another verse that can be helpful in describing how a Christian should act.

1 Corinthians 10:23-24 ---All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.

Let's not be looking out for number one like this society preaches. Self driven motivations are not profitable. Motivations that are God centered and look to the other person are more profitable in the Eternal sense.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
He desires us to do what is right; even expects us to. However, He does not expect us to be capable of always doing what is right; He knows we will sometimes fail, which is why Christ died in the first place, because we can't be perfect without Him.

Nope. I don't love because I'm told to. It's not an obligation. I do it because He first loved me, and that love pours out from me.

And yet even when I don't feel like it, even when I hate someone, I still love them. Why? Not because God demands it, but because I should. And it is only through Him that I can do so, because left to my own devices I could not love those I hated.

Excellent :thumb:

That is not Paul telling us to obey the law. The law, while based on the idea that love perpetuates these actions, never commanded, nor even required, us to love anyone. Paul is telling us, as Jesus said, that if we love God and one another then we will do the things in the law as a result.

I agree...we establish the law which is holy just and good.


Why would something which we are not under be written on our hearts?

For the same reason His Law was written in our conscience...so we would know good from evil. When we are "quickened" by the Spirit, our conscience is quickened, and right and wrong has a much broader reach. We now see how our attitude is as important as what we actually do. We give cheerfully, not out of a sense of duty (as an example.)

And here you have shown something at the core of the issue, we are not required to keep the law, for not only are we not required to be physically circumcised but to be so profits us absolutely nothing in our relationship with God.

I wasn't talking about "physical circumcision," but a circumcision of our heart. Taking away our heart of stone, and giving us a heart of flesh...having the LOVE of God shed abroad on our heart.

Zechariah 7:12
Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.


2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.



No, God is the standard of righteousness. The law was a guideline, and a tutor, nothing more.

And none of us keep the law to the fullest extent, anyway. We are not all physically circumcised, and those who are usually are not so because of the law. We do not observe the Sabbath. We eat pork and shellfish. Shall I go on?

I don't see how God's Law is any different than God, Himself. So, I still say the Law is God's standard. It's summed up in loving God and our neighbor...
 

Lighthouse

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I wasn't talking about "physical circumcision," but a circumcision of our heart. Taking away our heart of stone, and giving us a heart of flesh...having the LOVE of God shed abroad on our heart.
I was making the point that the verse you used showed that we did not keep the Law as it was written.

I don't see how God's Law is any different than God, Himself. So, I still say the Law is God's standard. It's summed up in loving God and our neighbor...
There are numerous ceremonial aspects of the law that have nothing to do with righteousness, or even morality. That is why the law is not the standard.
 

rocketman

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I don't see how God's Law is any different than God, Himself. So, I still say the Law is God's standard. It's summed up in loving God and our neighbor...

Gods standard is perfection...

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Lighthouse is correct, the law is just a tutor to show us we can never reach that standard of perfection. It is the perfection of Jesus and His shed blood for our imperfection and our belief in His sacrifice on our behalf that makes us perfect in Him.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Gods standard is perfection...

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Lighthouse is correct, the law is just a tutor to show us we can never reach that standard of perfection. It is the perfection of Jesus and His shed blood for our imperfection and our belief in His sacrifice on our behalf that makes us perfect in Him.

Yes, God is perfect, and so is His Law.

Psalm 19:7
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I was making the point that the verse you used showed that we did not keep the Law as it was written.


There are numerous ceremonial aspects of the law that have nothing to do with righteousness, or even morality. That is why the law is not the standard.

The Law of God and the Book of the Law of Moses are different. The Ten Commandments are the Eternal Law of God written in our conscience, and on stone by the finger of God. The Law of Moses was added for transgression. I wasn't talking about the Law of Moses.
 

Angel4Truth

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Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The word translated as perfect there in the greek means to be complete. The actual literal rendering, says mature instead of perfect.
We are to be complete as the Father is complete and we can only be complete in Christ. We are incomplete separated in sin from God.


Matthew 5:48.
|2071| be
|3767| So,
|5210| You
|5046| mature,
|5618| as
|3588| the
|3962| Father
|5216| of you
|3588| the
|3770| heavenly
|5046| mature
|2076| is.



Strong's Ref. # 5046

Romanized teleios
Pronounced tel'-i-os

from GSN5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with GSN3588) completeness:
 

Lighthouse

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The Law of God and the Book of the Law of Moses are different. The Ten Commandments are the Eternal Law of God written in our conscience, and on stone by the finger of God. The Law of Moses was added for transgression. I wasn't talking about the Law of Moses.
No.

The Decalogue is not the "Eternal Law of God.":nono: In fact, the commandment regarding the Sabbath is one that was only for Israel as a covenant between them and God. And Paul writes that we can regard the Sabbath as just another day, because it is not part of this dispensation.
 

lesjude

New member
I think so. You (now) agree it’s a command but don’t think it’s a “requirement” for salvation, so why can’t I? You said that you don’t need to love God with all your heart mind and soul or seek to fulfill any of the commandments of God. God, through Paul, has commanded us to seek to fulfill all the commandments of God by loving our neighbor as ourselves. It’s a command. We ARE asked to “keep the law.”

Maybe this will help. My son remains my son even when he disobeys me. I continue to ask him to keep my rules and when he doesn’t, I discipline him in hopes to refine him. I know that keeping my rules will help him become a better person. But his lack of obedience doesn’t mean he’s no longer my son. It’s not a requirement for sonship.
A Christian accepts the training and discipline to live Matthew 5, 6, and 7 because he is saved not to be saved or stay saved. These verses are the principles that God gives for relating to Him and all people. Jews, no matter how "religious" they are cannot live these principals. This is one means that Christianity provokes Jews to jealously.
Jesus is quite clear about the results of lawlessness, i.e. refusing to receive the Holy Spirit grace and training to live Matthew 5, 6, and 7 before Him and the world in Matthew 7:21-24.
How does all this fit in your theology?
 

Nick M

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You will not find concepts of the Body of Christ nor the dispensation of grace given to Paul for us anywhere in the book of Matthew.
 

Nick M

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I don't want to go down a rabbit trail, and we already did. I will come back, but have some nasty rebukes to hand out in the "Christian" forum first.

Anyway....

The Body of Christ was planned from the foundation of the world. We would be Holy and blameless in him. Jew and gentile would both be a part of it.

The dispensation of grace was not planned from the foundation. Israel was set aside and had strict rules. We are given a pass, much to the dismay of godrulz, Jason0047 and other perverts here. The events have overlap, as the dispensation of grace put us in the Body of Christ. Where as Israel had to endure to the end.
 

lesjude

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You will not find concepts of the Body of Christ nor the dispensation of grace given to Paul for us anywhere in the book of Matthew.

Then who and what is Matthew 5, 6, and 7 for?
Then are you saying that Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 not for the body of Christ?
What about "born again" in John 3:1-8?
 

Nick M

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Then who and what is Matthew 5, 6, and 7 for?
Then are you saying that Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 not for the body of Christ?
What about "born again" in John 3:1-8?

For Israel and their earthly kingdom they stood to inherit.

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Do you keep what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23? Be honest.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

And you are not born again, as the Lord Jesus Christ describes in John 3. Nobody is but him. For now. Unless you are going to tell me you can vanish from sight, nobody knows where you went.
 
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