ECT "The Body" 1 Corinthians

[Stripe]

FWIW, a lot of things fell into place mentally for me once I began to posit that the Church is a lady. :idunno: I recommend trying it on for size anyway.
:e4e:

I've edited my response after some research. That passage does indeed seem to refer to the church as a "she."

 

[Stripe]

I've edited my response after some research. That passage does indeed seem to refer to the church as a "she."

From a bit more research, it looks like the word for church in Greek, "ἐκκλησία," is always feminine.

We might have to look further.

What clicked into place when you started referring to the church as "she," and why was it an issue?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The BODY of Christ is like the female BEFORE she was taken out of man.
The BRIDE of Christ is the like the female given back to the man AFTER she was taken out.

 

[Nihilo]

From a bit more research, it looks like the word for church in Greek, "ἐκκλησία," is always feminine.

We might have to look further.

Unrelatedly, but a thought here: the Greek word petra ("rock") is feminine, but when the neuter Aramaic Keefa (KJV Cephas) is rendered in Greek for Peter, it is transformed to the masculine petros.

What clicked into place when you started referring to the church as "she," and why was it an issue?

For instance, my own wife hasn't lost her identity just because she's married to me; neither does it make sense to me that we lose our identity because we are a member of the Church. If we are the Body of Christ through marriage, then we identify with Him through marriage, and also then it analogically doesn't mean that either us or the Lord loses our individuality. The distinction between Husband and wife, or Master and servant, is preserved.

Again, FWIW.

I applaud your faith in the Scripture.

 

[Stripe]

For instance, my own wife hasn't lost her identity just because she's married to me; neither does it make sense to me that we lose our identity because we are a member of the Church. If we are the Body of Christ through marriage, then we identify with Him through marriage, and also then it analogically doesn't mean that either us or the Lord loses our individuality. The distinction between Husband and wife, or Master and servant, is preserved.

OK.

However, the passage still does not explicitly describe the church as married to Christ.

I applaud your faith in the Scripture.

Thanks.

 

[Nihilo]

OK.

However, the passage still does not explicitly describe the church as married to Christ.

Neither does 2nd Corinthians 11:2 (KJV).

 

[Danoh]

The body of Christ should be referred to as a "he."

Actually, Paul uses three descriptions when describing the Body of Christ.

At times he uses descriptions descriptive of female characteristics.

Other times he uses descriptions describing male characteristics.

And yet other times he describes things as "neither...nor."

The Body being a spiritual entity.

Paul's perspective obviously having been the mind of Christ through word descriptions he asserts in 1 Corinthians 2 was given his spirit mind or taught him, by God through the Spirit for Paul to speak of, or make known to the Body; it makes sense that Paul would make use of all three types of descriptions in his God inspired attempt to incorporate in his descriptions of the Body, the principle that "a (composite) pictue is worth a thousand words."

Thus the imagery - of a female - of a male - of two as one (or neither...nor).

A thought on all this...

He is using spiritual words...

They have no identity.

They are neither...nor.

But he is describing said spiritual things to a readership who might easily slip back into looking at things from a carnal perspective...

As a result: Paul, ever mindful of this; would describe things in carnal terms - in flesh and bones terminology.

In other words, he was well aware of his readership's potential for easily slipping back into looking at things from where the natural man the wisdom of this world originates in...looks out and perceives things from.

He even mentions at times that this is exactly why he is describing things in carnal terms.

His "predicament" being his finding himself with the "problem" of how to describe the infinite to the finite;

How to describe the "neither...nor" to the one or the other focus that most are ever stuck in;

How to describe the color of the moon to a man born...blind.

Thus, his - which things we speak in word descriptions imagery given our spirit mind by the Spirit...but I could not speak unto you as unto spiritual...for ye are yet carnal...in where you look at things from..thus your divisiveness among you...

It is why Paul emphasizes that there is a lot...to see...if one will look at things with or through the spiritual eyes that Paul's God given word descriptions imagery...actually are.

His words were...the mind of Christ...on the things of God concerning...the Body...to; for; and about...the Body.

 

[Stripe]

Actually, Paul uses three descriptions when describing the Body of Christ.At times he uses descriptions descriptive of female characteristics.Other times he uses descriptions describing male characteristics.And yet other times he describes things as "neither...nor."The Body being a spiritual entity.Paul's perspective obviously having been the mind of Christ through word descriptions he asserts in 1 Corinthians 2 was given his spirit mind or taught him, by God through the Spirit for Paul to speak of, or make known to the Body; it makes sense that Paul would make use of all three types of descriptions in his God inspired attempt to incorporate in his descriptions of the Body, the principle that "a (composite) pictue is worth a thousand words." Thus the imagery - of a female - of a male - of two as one (or neither...nor).A thought on all this...He is using spiritual words...They have no identity.They are neither...nor.But he is describing said spiritual things to a readership who might easily slip back into looking at things from a carnal perspective... As a result: Paul, ever mindful of this; would describe things in carnal terms - in flesh and bones terminology. In other words, he was well aware of his readership's potential for easily slipping back into looking at things from where the natural man the wisdom of this world originates in...looks out and perceives things from. He even mentions at times that this is exactly why he is describing things in carnal terms. His "predicament" being his finding himself with the "problem" of how to describe the infinite to the finite; How to describe the "neither...nor" to the one or the other focus that most are ever stuck in; How to describe the color of the moon to a man born...blind. Thus, his - which things we speak in word descriptions imagery given our spirit mind by the Spirit...but I could not speak unto you as unto spiritual...for ye are yet carnal...in where you look at things from..thus your divisiveness among you... It is why Paul emphasizes that there is a lot...to see...if one will look at things with or through the spiritual eyes that Paul's God given word descriptions imagery...actually are. His words were...the mind of Christ...on the things of God concerning...the Body...to; for; and about...the Body.

Sum it up for me: Am I justified in referring to the Church as "he," given that it is the body of Christ?

 

[Stripe]

Neither does 2nd Corinthians 11:2 (KJV).

To be fair, that's not explicitly a reference to the church, and it's prefaced as "a little folly."

 

[Tambora]

Sum it up for me: Am I justified in referring to the Church as "he," given that it is the body of Christ?

I don't know why not.

I would think that Eve being in Adam (before his rib was removed), Adam was called "he".
Only when separated were they he and she.

We are in Christ, the last Adam.
We will never be separated.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The Body of Christ, having been identified in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, having been risen with him, are the one new man as Adam was a new man when created (before Eve was taken out).

Christ died for all, but ONLY his Body were crucified, buried, and risen WITH him.

 

[Nihilo]

The Body of Christ, having been identified in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, having been risen with him, are the one new man as Adam was a new man when created (before Eve was taken out).

Christ died for all, but ONLY his Body were crucified, buried, and risen WITH him.

Are the Ephesians "the Church" Paul mentions in Ephesians 5:32 (KJV)?

(IOW, in Ephesians 5:30 KJV does "we" mean, "we the whole Church," "we the Apostles," "we the House of Israel," or something else?)

 

[Tnkrbl123!]

I don't know why not.

I would think that Eve being in Adam (before his rib was removed), Adam was called "he".
Only when separated were they he and she.

We are in Christ, the last Adam.
We will never be separated.

Hey there, thanks for this insight. Even though it doesn't specifically answer my question about the body in 1 Corinthians, it is an interesting idea that I have never really thought about before so thanks.

 

[Tnkrbl123!]

Some people might be surfing the web looking for an answer to the same or a similar question, it's not all about you and your precious assignment, that's artificial and unrelated to any spiritual searching that's going on outside of your college dorm room. Sorry for your confusion.

Hahaha no really YOU are the one who is confused. I started this thread and the title of it is "the body 1 CORINTHIANS." So if people are "surfing the web looking for an answer to the same question" then they would come to this thread and hope to find the answer to the question would they not? And your reply to the question had nothing to do with the question that I asked, or more specifically the question they were surfing the web looking for an answer to! So actually you are the one who is confused. I get that these threads tend to go off topic after a while but you were one of the first replies and you did not answer the question being asked at all so I was telling you early on that I thought YOU might be confused to what the question was. And since I started this thread about MY assignment, I would think that maybe this thread is actually about my search for knowledge to help with my assignment duh!
Plus if you think the only university students in the world are fresh out of high school, living in a dorm room off macaroni cups then you are very mistaken!
And finally, it is so far from being "artificial and unrelated to any spiritual searching going on outside of my dorm room" for so many reasons. First, you know absolutely nothing about me! So how can you be so shut off from reality to automatically assume because someone is in university taking a class that they are not genuinely interested in expanding their knowledge on that subject. Maybe it is so they can live their life with a deeper understanding of the thing they are most passionate about and want to share with the world! which, by the way is exactly what I am doing. This is extremely related to my spiritual searching because the reason I am in university and taking this class is for that exact reason! I already have a bachelors degree that I worked very hard for. I am taking a second bachelor's degree in Christian Theology not because I have to, and not because I can afford to (because I can't), but because I am so passionate about Jesus that I want to learn all that I can so I can share it with the world!
I usually wouldn't say anything to a presumptuous off the cuff comment that somebody makes without thinking but I think it is important for you to look beyond yourself and what you assume about certain groups of people.
Prejudice and stereotyping people really bothers me and is a terrible habit to have and many people say prejudice comments they don't even realize. And prejudice isn't only against certain cultures, ethnicities or religions it can be against everything! It makes you look like you are very prejudice against university students for some strange reason and clump them ALL into one small, closed minded category. You need to open your eyes and look at the big picture and realize that there are billions of lives in this world and all are on a different journey from your own obviously small perspective. And university is very hard, and school does not come easy to lots of people, including myself, and it requires a lot of hard work and dedication, which also isn't easy, but many people continue school despite that. So keep that in mind next time you want to marginalize a group of people.

 

[Crucible]

Christ is the Head, and the Body does his will.

Spiritual Israel facto #1

 

[Danoh]

Sum it up for me: Am I justified in referring to the Church as "he," given that it is the body of Christ?

Gender appears to be a distinction as a means for our finite minds to grasp the wholeness of the infinite.

In Christ, for example, the male-female distinction is no longer, once again.

Sort of like gender neutral words like mankind; actor; doer; and so on.

Such words are "neither male; nor female" in their descriptions.

And there is an aspect of all this that is due to the limitations, or not, of one particular language or another.

Case in point (and I am open to correction on this).

In English, we say and read of "the word."

In contrast to that, in Spanish, there is both the masculine - "el verbo" and the feminine - "la palabra."

And each language has its strengths and its minuses as to such things.

Hebrew and Greek are no exception.

My sense is that the Godhead is also "neither male; nor female."

As with the angels. Though presented as males in Scripture; the distinction does not appear to point to the same aspect of "male" as male, that it now does here on Earth.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Add to the fact of man's tendency to look at things from the finite; together with the religious extremism of some - the tendency of such toward an insistence on a "black or white; take it or leave it; others are either with me on a thing or my enemy" and the following nonsense also from Luke 20, is the result...

Luke 20:27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, 20:28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 20:29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 20:30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 20:31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 20:32 Last of all the woman died also. 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.

In short, the kind of extremist nonsense now also evident on the various "Christian" forums by all sides of the many sided fence that Christianity has been turned into by such.

All of which swear, of course; that is the other side's doing.

A thought on this...

Sides?

No wonder all the bickering.

Note, for example, Paul's words to BOTH males and females in the Body at Corinth.

He appears to use the word "man" in a gender neutral sense...

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

That is some reconciling of all things - that all things end up neither in favor of one side, nor of another...

No small wonder then, not only the great unity of the Godhead; but its' calling to the Body to walk in same toward one another...

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I sincerely doubt the ONE new "man" the Godhead has in mind is the great mountain of insults and basis for so called "acceptance" that is made out ou of those two little words at the end of verse 5, and other like "controversies."

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Are the Ephesians "the Church" Paul mentions in Ephesians 5:32 (KJV)?

(IOW, in Ephesians 5:30 KJV does "we" mean, "we the whole Church," "we the Apostles," "we the House of Israel," or something else?)

He is referring solely to the church, which is his Body.

 

[Stripe]

My sense is that the Godhead is also "neither male; nor female."

We're talking about the body of Christ; not the Godhead.

So while I would disagree over the terms we should use to describe Him, I think you're off topic.

My view that the body of Christ would be a male body seems unchallenged, especially given that such terminology makes it distinct from Israel, which is distinctly "she."

This is important in response to OP's search for answers on why Paul is "so focused on the body"; it is because he is overthrowing the pre-eminence of Israel.

 

[Danoh]

I don't know what that means.

:chuckle:

 

[Nihilo]

Based on this egocentric diatribe wall-of-text response of yours, odds are against you learning anything from this thread you started for us, but I enjoy a good underdog-overcoming story as much as the next person, so I'll root for you.

Hahaha

Spoiler

no really YOU are the one who is confused. I started this thread and the title of it is "the body 1 CORINTHIANS." So if people are "surfing the web looking for an answer to the same question" then they would come to this thread and hope to find the answer to the question would they not? And your reply to the question had nothing to do with the question that I asked, or more specifically the question they were surfing the web looking for an answer to! So actually you are the one who is confused. I get that these threads tend to go off topic after a while but you were one of the first replies and you did not answer the question being asked at all so I was telling you early on that I thought YOU might be confused to what the question was. And since I started this thread about MY assignment, I would think that maybe this thread is actually about my search for knowledge to help with my assignment duh!
Plus if you think the only university students in the world are fresh out of high school, living in a dorm room off macaroni cups then you are very mistaken!
And finally, it is so far from being "artificial and unrelated to any spiritual searching going on outside of my dorm room" for so many reasons. First, you know absolutely nothing about me! So how can you be so shut off from reality to automatically assume because someone is in university taking a class that they are not genuinely interested in expanding their knowledge on that subject. Maybe it is so they can live their life with a deeper understanding of the thing they are most passionate about and want to share with the world! which, by the way is exactly what I am doing. This is extremely related to my spiritual searching because the reason I am in university and taking this class is for that exact reason! I already have a bachelors degree that I worked very hard for. I am taking a second bachelor's degree in Christian Theology not because I have to, and not because I can afford to (because I can't), but because I am so passionate about Jesus that I want to learn all that I can so I can share it with the world!
I usually wouldn't say anything to a presumptuous off the cuff comment that somebody makes without thinking but I think it is important for you to look beyond yourself and what you assume about certain groups of people.
Prejudice and stereotyping people really bothers me and is a terrible habit to have and many people say prejudice comments they don't even realize. And prejudice isn't only against certain cultures, ethnicities or religions it can be against everything! It makes you look like you are very prejudice against university students for some strange reason and clump them ALL into one small, closed minded category. You need to open your eyes and look at the big picture and realize that there are billions of lives in this world and all are on a different journey from your own obviously small perspective. And university is very hard, and school does not come easy to lots of people, including myself, and it requires a lot of hard work and dedication, which also isn't easy, but many people continue school despite that. So keep that in mind next time you want to marginalize a group of people.