Stopping the KJVO myth in its tracks...
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brandplucked
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Duh! You entirely missed the whole point even when it is in CAPITAL letters. See if you can catch what the real word difference is this time. Hint - there are three words and one starts with an "R" and it is not a synonym for "pride" or "boasting"
Rejoice or Be Proud? Are Pride and Boasting Christian virtues?
Philippians 2:16 “Holding forth the word of life; that I MAY REJOICE in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.”
REJOICE - Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587, Young's literal, Webster's 1833, NKJV 1982
Philippians 2:16 NIV - "in order that I MAY BOAST in the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing."
ESV "THAT I MAY BE PROUD that I did not run in vain"
BE PROUD, BOAST, GLORY - NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, NET, Holman
On the day of Christ, when we finally see the full glory of God Almighty, we will not be standing around boasting of our accomplishments and patting one another on the back and telling them how proud we are of them. Nobody will be boasting or proud of his personal accomplishments in the day of the Lord Jesus. Instead we will all be flat on our faces worshipping the Lamb who alone is worthy to receive praise, honour and glory
http://brandplucked.webs.com/mvsprideasvirtue.htm
God's Truth
New member
Rejoice, proud, boast, all the same thing.
Why do you want to go against the scriptures and say no one would be rejoicing and boasting in the LORD?
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Yes and this handful of people never will get it.
We are relics of an age when words had specific meanings. Indolence used to be an oddity; it is now a cherished attribute. And it shows most in our lack of proficiency with our own language.
Being proud of righteousness is a completely Christian virtue! So is being angry or jealous or hateful when those emotions are appropriate.
There is no blanket prohibition against being proud of something. I'm proud of my children, I'm so proud of my Mom (She's amazing!), I'm proud of my wife, I'm proud of the work that my church has done and is doing, I'm completely proud of Jesus, etc.
The sort of pride that is unrighteous is the sort that makes you think or feel like you're better than you are, that someone else is beneath you and/or that you don't need anyone else, most especially a savior.
Further, the NIV translation is not wrong! The word translated "may boast" is "kauchēma" (strongs G2745) and it means to glory or boast.
καύχημα kaúchēma, kow'-khay-mah; from G2744;
a boast (properly, the object; by implication, the act) in a good or a bad sense:—boasting, (whereof) to glory (of), glorying, rejoice(-ing).
a boast (properly, the object; by implication, the act) in a good or a bad sense:—boasting, (whereof) to glory (of), glorying, rejoice(-ing).
In fact, the King James translates this word as "boasting" in II Corinthians...
II Corinthians 9:3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
WOOPS! So much for your false premise that boasting is categorically unchristian! Is there a premise that you guys use that isn't false? It seems the whole KJV only position is based almost entirely on arguments that aren't designed to rationally prove their case but rather to elicit an emotional rejection of the opposition. Your argument here is an excellent example. The idea was to throw out "Are Pride and Boasting Christian virtues?" with the assumption that anyone who read that question would instinctively answer "No" and then you'd have them. The problem is that for those of us who think rather than emote our way through life, such arguments are easy to detect and to defeat.
Now, having said all of that, the King James translation isn't wrong either but that isn't the point. The point is that the context makes the meaning clear regardless of which translation your read. The meaning is preserved either way and thus your contention that this represents some sort of contradiction is false.
Clete
brandplucked
New member
Clete, IF you had actually read the whole post on "Rejoice" or "proud" I explained 2 Corinthians 9:3, and Scripture does speak against being proud of oneself and your fake bibles DO promote taking pride and being boastful in oneself. I guess you are just too blind and too stubborn to see this.
Philippians 2:16 “Holding forth the word of life; that I MAY REJOICE in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.”
REJOICE - Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587, Young's literal, Webster's 1833, NKJV 1982
Philippians 2:16 NIV - "in order that I MAY BOAST in the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing."
ESV "THAT I MAY BE PROUD that I did not run in vain"
BE PROUD, BOAST, GLORY - NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, NET, Holman
And nowhere in the true Bible does it ever teach that we should be proud of our righteousness as you stated.
Clete says: "Being proud of righteousness is a completely Christian virtue!"
Well Clete, maybe in your fake bible versions, but not in the true words of God.
Philippians 2:16 “Holding forth the word of life; that I MAY REJOICE in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.”
REJOICE - Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587, Young's literal, Webster's 1833, NKJV 1982
Philippians 2:16 NIV - "in order that I MAY BOAST in the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing."
ESV "THAT I MAY BE PROUD that I did not run in vain"
BE PROUD, BOAST, GLORY - NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, NET, Holman
And nowhere in the true Bible does it ever teach that we should be proud of our righteousness as you stated.
Clete says: "Being proud of righteousness is a completely Christian virtue!"
Well Clete, maybe in your fake bible versions, but not in the true words of God.
God's Truth
New member
The Jews could boast that they had the ceremonial works to make themselves clean and the Gentiles did not, but if they did not do right then of course they should not boast.
Romans 2:23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
The Jews had the law to boast in.
Galatians 6:13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh.
Philippians 3:3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh--
Did you read that read? That is about not boasting in making ourselves clean with things such as CIRCUMCISION.
We can't just boast for having faith and for not being obedient.
James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Romans 2:23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
The Jews had the law to boast in.
Galatians 6:13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh.
Philippians 3:3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh--
Did you read that read? That is about not boasting in making ourselves clean with things such as CIRCUMCISION.
We can't just boast for having faith and for not being obedient.
James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
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God's Truth
New member
I trust in Jesus, who is God. I trust every WORD that he says. He says humble yourself, I bow to his words and humble myself. He says forgive others, I bow to his words and forgive others. He says repent of your sins, I bow and repent, I think of every sin that I ever did, and I repent of them.
If my admitting that I humble myself and obey is boasting, then so be it.
Paul obviously had to deal with people who charged him as boastful. Paul shows us that if admitting you obey and if to encourage others for obeying is boastful, then so be it.
If my admitting that I humble myself and obey is boasting, then so be it.
Paul obviously had to deal with people who charged him as boastful. Paul shows us that if admitting you obey and if to encourage others for obeying is boastful, then so be it.
brandplucked
New member
The irony is that "God's Truth" is quoting the Fake Bible versions in these verses to try to justify the sin of boasting in oneself but the true Bible does not say what the fake bibles have, and he just doesn't "get it".
But I guess this is only to be expected from a guy that tells us that "rejoice" means the same things as "to be proud" and "to boast".
He apparently missed the fact that when Paul is "boasting" in himself in 2 Corinthians, he refers to it as "folly" and speaking foolishly - See 2 Corinthians 11:1, 10, 16-18 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also."
And in Romans 2:23 the Jews who boasted in the law, were breaking the law and dishonoring God.
How can a man boast in something he had nothing to do with earning or accomplishing by or in himself? If we receive anything from God, it is a gift of his grace.
God's Truth
New member
The words mean the same thing.
If I rejoice in your friendship because you obey Jesus and are Christi like, then it still could be called boasting. God boasts over those who obey Him, and so do all the angels.
I read it and no, they don't.
Is this contrivance the best you can do? Is this really your defense of the position that the King James Bible is the only legitimate bible?
You have got to be kidding me!
Give the name of one single Christian anywhere in the existence of all Christianity that accepts, teaches or othwerwise overtly promotes "taking pride and being boastful in oneself" and uses the bible - any bible - to make the argument.
Go ahead, just name any one preacher, teacher, guru, profit, author or whatever who calls himself a Christian, claims to believe in the bible and teaches that the bible says its okay to "take pride and be boastful in oneself".
Just one!
Any one!
You won't find it if you looked because the only idiots on the planet that think any bible in existence teaches such a thing are you KJV Only conspiracy theorists.
Yet another PERFECT example of you KJV only dingbats completely ignoring the rebuttal that just defeated your argument and somehow thinking that if you just repeat the argument that it means I have to rebut it again or else you win the debate.
Your own so called "true bible" translates the word used in the Greek as "boast" in another passage and in a similar context. Either translation is quite correct and perfectly valid, as I have already said, because the meaning is made plain by the context.
You're a lunatic! I never said one single word about being proud of OUR righteousness.
And it is, as your very own beloved King James bible repeatedly states.
II Corinthians 7:14
For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.
II Corinthians 8:24
Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.
II Corinthians 9:2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready: 4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
II Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
II Corinthians 11:10
As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
Psalm 34:2
My soul shall make her boast in the Lord: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
Psalm 44:8
In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah.
For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.
II Corinthians 8:24
Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.
II Corinthians 9:2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready: 4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
II Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.
10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.
12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.
17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.
12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.
17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.
II Corinthians 11:10
As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
Psalm 34:2
My soul shall make her boast in the Lord: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
Psalm 44:8
In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah.
In short, the bible - any bible - teaches two things in this regard...
Feeling good about good stuff = Good
Self-righteous pride = Bad
It's not complicated and there isn't any such thing as a bible that makes this simple stuff hard to get.
Who is it that you're trying to convince here, anyway? Is anyone convinced by such stupidity?
Do you know how to think at all? Is this entire thing just one huge emotional exercise for you?
It's just a belief for you, isn't it? It isn't really about having thought anything through to determine if it makes any real sense. You believe it because your parents believed it or because you paid a whopping huge amount of money going to a school that taught it to you or some other such thing. Why cling to a doctrine that has no more basis that the wobbly ground of reactionary emotionalism, baseless clichés and irrational contrivances?
Clete
P.S. Please either use quote tags or add an @ in front of my name so that when you respond to one my posts, I'll get some sort of notivication that you've done so.
brandplucked
New member
Rejoice or Be Proud?
In the true Holy Bible boasting in oneself is never commended as a good thing. Scripture allows for boasting in the accomplishments of others, but not in ourselves. For example, see 2 Corinthians 7:14; 8:24, and 9:3-4. Here the apostle Paul boasted to others of the Corinthians because they were ready to provide for the needs of the poor saints in Jerusalem.
Boasting in oneself is done only in a sense of irony, and is called "folly" and speaking foolishly -
See 2 Corinthians 10:8 "For though I should BOAST somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed.", 10:13 "But we will not BOAST of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you."; 10:15 "Not BOASTING of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labors"; 10:16 "To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to BOAST in another man's line of things made ready to our hand. But HE THAT GLORIETH, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD. For NOT HE THAT COMMENDETH HIMSELF IS APPROVED, BUT WHOM THE LORD COMMENDETH."
"I am become A FOOL IN GLORYING, YE HAVE COMPELLED ME: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, THOUGH I BE NOTHING." 2 Corinthians 12:11
11:1 "Would to God ye could bear with me a little IN MY FOLLY"; 16-18 "That which I speak, I speak it NOT AFTER THE LORD, BUT AS IT WERE FOOLISHLY, IN THIS CONFIDENCE OF BOASTING. Seeing that MANY GLORY AFTER THE FLESH, I WILL GLORY ALSO."
In 2 Corinthians 10:11 where Paul says: As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this BOASTING IN the regions of Achaia." the immediate context seems to be the previous verse where he says: "And when I was present with you and wanted, I was chargeable to no man; for that which was lacking to me THE BRETHREN FROM MACEDONIA SUPPLIED: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself."
His boasting was IN the region of Achaia and those from Macedonia who had ministered to his needs and to the needs of the saints.
We see this in Romans 15:26 - "For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem." We see the same thing in 2 Corinthians 8:1-5 where the churches of Macedonia "prayed us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints."
Pride and boasting in oneself is always condemned in the King James Bible as being a sin. Many new versions however have completely turned this around in several verses of Scripture, and have now made pride in self and boasting to be Christian virtues.
In the true Holy Bible boasting in oneself is never commended as a good thing. Scripture allows for boasting in the accomplishments of others, but not in ourselves. For example, see 2 Corinthians 7:14; 8:24, and 9:3-4. Here the apostle Paul boasted to others of the Corinthians because they were ready to provide for the needs of the poor saints in Jerusalem.
Boasting in oneself is done only in a sense of irony, and is called "folly" and speaking foolishly -
See 2 Corinthians 10:8 "For though I should BOAST somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed.", 10:13 "But we will not BOAST of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you."; 10:15 "Not BOASTING of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labors"; 10:16 "To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to BOAST in another man's line of things made ready to our hand. But HE THAT GLORIETH, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD. For NOT HE THAT COMMENDETH HIMSELF IS APPROVED, BUT WHOM THE LORD COMMENDETH."
"I am become A FOOL IN GLORYING, YE HAVE COMPELLED ME: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, THOUGH I BE NOTHING." 2 Corinthians 12:11
11:1 "Would to God ye could bear with me a little IN MY FOLLY"; 16-18 "That which I speak, I speak it NOT AFTER THE LORD, BUT AS IT WERE FOOLISHLY, IN THIS CONFIDENCE OF BOASTING. Seeing that MANY GLORY AFTER THE FLESH, I WILL GLORY ALSO."
In 2 Corinthians 10:11 where Paul says: As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this BOASTING IN the regions of Achaia." the immediate context seems to be the previous verse where he says: "And when I was present with you and wanted, I was chargeable to no man; for that which was lacking to me THE BRETHREN FROM MACEDONIA SUPPLIED: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself."
His boasting was IN the region of Achaia and those from Macedonia who had ministered to his needs and to the needs of the saints.
We see this in Romans 15:26 - "For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem." We see the same thing in 2 Corinthians 8:1-5 where the churches of Macedonia "prayed us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints."
Pride and boasting in oneself is always condemned in the King James Bible as being a sin. Many new versions however have completely turned this around in several verses of Scripture, and have now made pride in self and boasting to be Christian virtues.
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God's Truth
New member
If you rejoice then proud is the same thing.
brandplucked
New member
Are you a product of our fine American Public Schools system? Try looking up the definition of "rejoice" and then "proud" in any English dictionary and be enlightened as to what these simple words actually mean. Just a suggestion.
Pride in other people's accomplishments is not condemned anywhere.
The Lord hates . . . a proud heart.
He doesn't hate when someone is proud of someone else's doings.
Which one of us non-KJO people has ever said otherwise?
You keep moving the goalposts from "boasting" in general to "boasting in oneself."
For example? Which versions?
God's Truth
New member
If I am rejoicing about you, then I am proud.
brandplucked
New member
Uhhh...Judge Rightly, I have not moved the goal posts at all. I stated these things from the beginning. You just need to work on your reading comprehension skills a bit more.
And your Fake bible versions DO teach that it is perfectly good and acceptable to boast or be proud of what YOU have done, and not just others. Pretty amazing stuff that you can't see the obvious.
Galatians 6:4 KJB "Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have REJOICING in himself alone."
REJOICING is the reading of Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops' Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587, The Beza N.T. 1599, The Bill Bible 1671, Whiston's N.T. 1745, John Wesley's 1755 translation, The Revised Translation 1815, Webster's 1833 translation, The Longman Version 1841, The Commonly Received Version 1851, Godbey N.T. 1902, The Clarke N.T. 1913, the NKJV 1982, The Word of Yah 1993, KJV 21st Century 1994, the Third Millennium Bible 1998, God's First Truth 1999, Last Days Bible 1999, The Tomson N.T. 2002, The Evidence Bible 2003, The Resurrection Life N.T. 2005 -"he will REJOICE in what he has done", Bond Slave Version 2009, Holy Scriptures VW Edition 2010, Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, Conservative Bible 2011, Interlinear Hebrew-Greek Scriptures 2012 (Mebust), and the Modern English Version 2014.
However the NASB and Holman say: "he will have REASON FOR BOASTING in regard TO himself"
NIV, Dan Wallace's NET version - "he can TAKE PRIDE IN HIMSELF",
and the ESV says: "then his REASON TO BOAST WILL BE IN HIMSELF ALONE."
Catholic St. Joseph NAB 1970 - "IF HE HAS A REASON TO BOAST OF ANYTHING, IT WILL BE BECAUSE THE ACHIEVEMENT IS HIS"
The Voice 2012 says: “ Examine your own works so that IF YOU ARE PROUD, IT WILL BE BECAUSE OF YOUR OWN ACCOMPLISHMENTS and not someone else’s.”
Philippians 2:16 "that I may REJOICE in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."
Also reading "that I may REJOICE in the day of Christ" are Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, The Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops' Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587, The Beza N.T. 1599, The Bill Bible 1671, Worsley Version 1770, The Revised Translation 1815, Living Oracles 1835, The Longman Version 1841, Young's literal 1898, Webster's translation 1833, The Commonly Received Version 1851, The Clarke N.T. 1913, the NKJV 1982, The Word of Yah 1993, KJV 21st Century Version 1994, the Third Millennium Bible 1998, Lawrie Translation 1998, Last Days Bible 1999, God's First Truth 1999, The Tomson N.T. 2002, The Evidence Bible 2003, The Resurrection Life New Testament 2005 (Vince Garcia), Bond Slave Version 2009, Majority Text Version 2009 (Paul Esposito), Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, Holy Scriptures VW Edition 2010, New European Version 2010, BRG Bible 2012, Interlinear Hebrew-Greek Scriptures 2012 (Mebust), and the Modern English Version 2014.
Other Versions
Living Bible 1971 - “Then when Christ returns, HOW GLAD I WILL BE that my work among you was so worthwhile.”
Conservative Bible 2011 - "that I MAY BE GLAD in the day of Christ that I did not work for nothing."
Expanded Bible 2011 - "I CAN BE HAPPY that I ran the race and won."
The Voice 2012 - “when the Anointed One returns I may have reason TO REJOICE, because it will be plain that I didn’t turn from His mission nor did I work in vain.”
International Children’s Bible 2015 - “So when Christ comes again, I CAN BE HAPPY because my work was not wasted. I ran in the race and won.”
The Perversions
NASB: "in the day of Christ I may have REASON TO GLORY because I did not run in vain"
Dan Wallace's NET version: "so that on the day of Christ I WILL HAVE A REASON TO BOAST that I did not run in vain nor labor in vain."
Holman Standard: "Then I CAN BOAST in the day of Christ that I didn't run in vain or labor for nothing."
NIV 1982 "in order that I MAY BOAST in the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing."
NIV 2011 - "And then I WILL BE ABLE TO BOAST on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain."
ESV 2011 "THAT I MAY BE PROUD that I did not run in vain"
God’s Word Translation 1995 - “THEN I CAN BRAG ON THE DAY OF CHRIST that my effort was not wasted and that my work produced results.”
Names of God Bible 2011 - “THEN I CAN BRAG ON THE DAY OF CHRIST that my effort was not wasted and that my work produced results.”
The Catholic Connection
Catholic St. Joseph NAB 1970 : "As I look to the day of Christ, you give me CAUSE TO BOAST that I did not run the race in vain."
Catholic New Jerusalem bible 1985: "Then shall I HAVE REASON TO BE PROUD on the day of Christ, for it will not be for nothing that I have run the race."
On the day of Christ, when we finally see the full glory of God Almighty, we will not be standing around boasting of our accomplishments and patting one another on the back and telling them how proud we are of them. Nobody will be boasting or proud of his personal accomplishments in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Instead we will all be flat on our faces worshipping the Lamb who alone is worthy to receive praise, honour and glory, and rejoicing in all that He has done in and through His vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory.
That's it! Just keep on repeating yourself! If you repeat that same argument again and again it'll become true! I promise!
No bible anywhere - NONE OF THEM - teaches that its okay to boast in self-righteous manner. The fact is you didn't even know the 2 Corinthian 10:11 passage existed until I bothered to do a ten second word search and showed it to you. You don't know how to think clearly enough to check the veracity of your own arguments before posting them on a public forum and got caught with your pants down and are now spin doctoring trying to salvage what is a ridiculously weak argument to begin with. What you aught to do, and what you would do if you were so proud, is drop it. But you won't because this is your white whale. It's the only thing you care about and stepping away from even a single argument, no matter how weak, would feel like an unacceptable breach of what is for you a core belief.
Regardless, your argument fails in two ways. The first is a doctrinal argument. You want to believe that the NIV teaches that it's okay to be self-righteously proud and that therefore it's an evil bible born of Satan and spit right from the pit of Hell itself. The fact that it's obviously not a biblical precept to be self-righteously proud is both your basic premise and that which defeats your argument because there just isn't any such thing as any Christian anywhere that thinks it's okay to be self-righteously proud, regardless of which bible they read.
The second has to do with the form of your argument. If you boil this down to it's core argument with all the doctrine stripped out of it then your argument has to do with differences in translation. So, how does arguing that the NIV (or some other popular bible) was translated differently than the King James prove either that the NIV was translated wrongly or that the King James was translated correctly?
You will not be able to answer that question in your favor without begging the question because the only correct answer is that it doesn't.
In other words, even if you could prove that the NIV translated that passage incorrectly (which you can't but for the sake of argument...) then proof of such would still do nothing to prove that the translation of the King James was correct, at least not in the way you've presented it.
Of course, the way you've presented it has more to do with your doctrinal argument than anything else but the point I'm trying to make to you is that this entire argument is totally the weakest possible argument you could possibly have come up with. It doesn't prove your case no matter which way you slice it. I could make a stronger argument for your case than this and I know for a fact that your position is false!
That, by the way, is an exercise you should try. You know your own arguments better than anyone and so try to prove your position wrong. See if you can formulate an argument that you don't know how to defeat. I do this all the time! I think of questions that I don't know the answer to and then try to turn them into arguments against my doctrine that I don't intuitively know how to defeat. Then I spend the time it takes to find the rebuttal to my own arguments. In other words, I don't just assume that what I believe is correct because I believe it or because someone I trust taught it to me. I spend real time and real effort trying to be sure that what I believe is the real truth and not some superstitious conspiracy theory where I happen to be in the crowd who belongs to the special group with the real truth and the real bible, blah, blah, blah.
Clete
brandplucked
New member
Hi Clete. I always learn things from you Bible agnostics who do not believe that any Bible in any language you can show us is now or ever was the complete and inerrant words of God. As for 2 Corinthians 11:10 (not 10:11) I saw the need to address more fully some of the verses you brought up where the word "boasting" is used in 2 Corinthians, so I added more commentary to my article. Thank you for showing me the need to do so.
You tell us that nobody thinks it's OK to be proud of what we do, yet if people actually believed these fake bible versions you like so much, then they would have to conclude that it is perfectly OK to do so, because that is what they teach.
There are FAR more problems and corruptions found in the fake bibles than just this one example. Your Bogus Bible versions omit literally thousands of words from the Reformation New Testament; ADD literally hundreds of words to the Hebrew O.T. (especially the ESV followed by the NIVs); reject numerous readings of names and numbers, and all of them DO teach false and contradictory doctrines in numerous places.
I can prove all of these things but you won't read or look at all the examples I can show you.
The NIV, NASB, ESV, NET, Holman Standard and other Vatican Versions reject the Hebrew Texts
Part One - Genesis through Psalms.
https://brandplucked.webs.com/nivnasbrejecthebrew.htm
The FACT is that most Christians today (including you) do NOT believe that any Bible in any language they can show us is now or ever was the complete and inerrant words of God. And you ARE your own authority when it comes to what you happen to think should or should not be in this "bible" your pretend to believe in.
It seems that your rabid hatred for any final written authority - the King James Bible - has messed up your mind so much that you can't even see how examples like this one DO promote and teach the idea that it is good and perfectly OK to boast in one's own works of righteousness. You are putting darkness for light, and light for darkness.
Galatians 6:4 KJB "Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have REJOICING in himself alone."
REJOICING is the reading of Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, the Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops' Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587, The Beza N.T. 1599, The Bill Bible 1671, Whiston's N.T. 1745, John Wesley's 1755 translation, The Revised Translation 1815, Webster's 1833 translation, The Longman Version 1841, The Commonly Received Version 1851, Godbey N.T. 1902, The Clarke N.T. 1913, the NKJV 1982, The Word of Yah 1993, KJV 21st Century 1994, the Third Millennium Bible 1998, God's First Truth 1999, Last Days Bible 1999, The Tomson N.T. 2002, The Evidence Bible 2003, The Resurrection Life N.T. 2005 -"he will REJOICE in what he has done", Bond Slave Version 2009, Holy Scriptures VW Edition 2010, Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, Conservative Bible 2011, Interlinear Hebrew-Greek Scriptures 2012 (Mebust), and the Modern English Version 2014.
However the NASB and Holman say: "he will have REASON FOR BOASTING in regard TO himself"
NIV, Dan Wallace's NET version - "he can TAKE PRIDE IN HIMSELF",
and the ESV says: "then his REASON TO BOAST WILL BE IN HIMSELF ALONE."
Catholic St. Joseph NAB 1970 - "IF HE HAS A REASON TO BOAST OF ANYTHING, IT WILL BE BECAUSE THE ACHIEVEMENT IS HIS"
The Voice 2012 says: “ Examine your own works so that IF YOU ARE PROUD, IT WILL BE BECAUSE OF YOUR OWN ACCOMPLISHMENTS and not someone else’s.
What I pointed out is that your argument was fallacious. Your entire argument rests on the premise that the NIV translated that word incorrectly, which they absolutely did not do as is confirmed not only by independant sources like Strong's Concordance but even by the fact that the King James bible itself translates the very same word as "boast". Had you known that other verse existed, you'd have never made the argument to begin with and now that you do know, it aught to be enough to cause you to drop the argument altogether, not do damage control.
No, it isn't what they teach. That IS NOT what they teach - period. The bible is not intended to be read like it was written by bunch of lawyers, where one mistralated word can turn the doctrine of the whole church on its head. If that were what the NIV or any other bible taught then you'd have factions of Christians here and there that teach it and those factions just do not exist and the reason they don't exist is because you would literally have to be stupid to think the bible teaches that it's okay to be self-righteously boastful.
I have no doubt that you see one on every page. Every time "you" is used instead of "thee" is a perterbation of God's word in your conspiratorial mind.
There is no way to translate Greek and Hebrew into English without adding words. Therefore the King James bible commits this same "sin".
Nearly all modern translations are based on a different set of texts than is the King James and New King James. Most, if not all, differences of this type come from this difference.
I'm convinced that the so called "Majority Texts" are superior and the English language has changed appreciably since late 16th and early 17th century and so for those two reasons alone, the New King James is by far my favorite English translation of the bible but I would never be so ridiculous as to leap from "superior translation" to "the only word of God in existence", which it seems is precisely the leap you KJV only people make.
In other words, all of your arguments seem to revolve around what other English translators got wrong and you base that argument on nothing at all except that the translation is different than the King James.
Can you not see how that is a question begging fallacy?
At best, showing how one translation is wrong is a premise for arguing that another translation is superior but you never make even that much of the argument. Even if you did, the furthest you can go down that road is to show that the KJV is superior to all other English translations. It doesn't touch translations in other languages nor does it touch any of the original language texts. In other words, the arguments you make don't even address the question of whether the KJV is "the complete and inerrant words of God". Instead they ASSUME an affirmative answer to that question and that's why its a fallacy. If the debate is about whether the KJV is the complete and inerrant words of God then you can make an argument that assumes that the answer to that question is "Yes it is.", then you've not made any progress toward proving anything because if your affirmative assumption is wrong then your argument is invalid and so whether your argument is valid or not is the same question as what is being debated in the first place. It's circular reasoning at its finest!
Saying it doesn't make it so - even if you capitalize it.
I see no reason to do so. I read every word of your debate with Bob and Will and there wasn't one single compelling argument that you made for your side. Not a single one. They all failed to even address the point they were intended to prove. That point being that the KJV is the only divine inspired and perfect example of God's word on the planet today. You never came close to proving that.
I don't even know what you mean by this but it's an excellent example of what I was just saying.
If I responded to this claim with a "So what?" how would you respond? Would you have a response at all or is it that you think simply stating that claim is somehow supposed to shock me into accepting the King James as the only extant word of God? I mean, who cares which texts they use so long as the meaning and message of the text is preserved? Sure some do a better job than others and there are arguments, good arguments, to be made as to why one set of texts are better than another but people of good conscience and right intent can disagree on such things and translate the bible into English and what you've got is something which communicates very nearly exactly the same thing as any other English translation so long as you aren't being a block head and trying to misunderstand it.
Neither do you. A point I've made already and which you ignored.
I'm getting tired of repeating the same rebuttal to the same stupidity. Either engage the debate or I'll ignore you.
This is just stupidity. As if you know the Greek and Hebrew well enough to know the the King James translators got is all perfectly correct, in spite of their own claim to the contrary.
What exactly do you KJV only people think was "the complete and inerrant words of God" before the King James existed and why'd we have to wait 1600+ years before God managed to get it right?
There is not one single bible anywhere in existence that teaches that it is okay to be self-righteously prideful - period. It does not teach that. To get that you have to come to the text with that idea in your head already and you have to ignore not only the context of the passage itself but the teaching of the entire rest of the whole bible.
In other words, it's a contrivance! If you tried to convince any pastor or group of pastors from any denomination or sect of Christianity that it was okay to boast in one's own works of righteousness based on any translation of the bible, including the NIV, you'd be laughed out of the room! Everyone in there would know you were a lunatic because it's patently obvious that no bible author could possibly be teaching such a thing and that any attempt to suggest otherwise would require one to be dense as an oak post and be actively trying to misunderstand what is being said.
All perfectly valid translations of the original as I have already proven. Repeating an argument doesn't count as a rejoinder. It just counts as being a stubborn waste of time.
As I said, you are either going to start responding to the arguments I make and stop simply repeating yourself or I'll simply ignore you.
Clete