Standing Up To Rome

Ben Masada

New member
It has been said America is now an empire. It stretches everywhere around the globe and uses violence as well as diplomacy.

The Roman Empire was violent as well and in a few times was diplomatic when it served them well.

When the little band of believers merged into the Holy Roman Empire in 325 AD (C.E.) their world and faith profoundly changed.

Among Christians, it was once an understanding that no man would join the empire’s armies. But after the Roman Emperor Constantine “converted” it soon became mandatory for able bodied Christians to join the military.

Many of the writings in Paul’s gospel show an attempt to separate the new faith from the goings and comings of the empire that surrounded him. But the “wall of separation” was finally breached.

In my opinion, we largely have a religion that Jesus would have rejected,
My only faith is to hold to Jesus and see him as the “norm” of the Bible.
I try to offer feedback both here and in my Bible study to start seeing Christianity in the context of a complex global world.

Yes, Aikido, you say above that your only faith is to hold unto Jesus and see him as the "norm" of the Bible but, considering that he was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism, I see no other way to hold unto him but by becoming one as he was. Has this bird ever rested its feet in your mind?
 

WeberHome

New member
-
Rome's poster child, Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (a.k.a. Mother Teresa) is a
terrible disappointment. It turns out Teresa was a remarkable actor. Her
public image bore no resemblance whatsoever to the secret life of her inner
being. Below are some quotes taken from her own private letters; and
excerpts of her statements from other sources. You be the judge: role model
or role player, believer or make-believer?

"Only pray that I keep up this joy exteriorly. I deceive people with this
weapon-- even my Sisters."

"I am grateful to for all the kindness & help you give to my Sisters and me.
My prayer, though miserably dry & frozen, is often offered for you & your
work for souls."

"When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting
emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my
very soul. How painful is this unknown pain-- I have no faith."

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness &
emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"Now Father-- since 49 or 50 this terrible sense of loss-- this untold
darkness-- this loneliness, this continual longing for God-- which gives me
pain deep down in my heart-- Darkness is such that I really do not see
neither with my mind nor with my reason-- the place of God in my soul is
blank-- There is no God in me-- when the pain of longing is so great-- I just
long & long for God-- and then it is that I feel-- He does not want me-- He is
not there-- God does not want me-- Sometimes-- I just hear my own heart
cry out-- "My God" and nothing else comes-- the torture and pain I can't
explain"

"My smile is a great cloak that hides a multitude of pains."

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment
with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I
feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not
really exist."

"If there be God . . please forgive me."

"Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim
or a better Protestant. Once you've found God, it's up to you to decide how
to worship him" (Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths, Associated Press,
9/7/97).

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of
Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's
presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for
this better men-- simply better --we will be satisfied. It matters to the
individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes
that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes
into their life-- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no
doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."

The April 7-13, 1990, issue of Radio Times tells the story of Mother Teresa
sheltering an old Hindu priest. "She nursed him with her own hands and
helped him to die reconciled with his own gods."

Teresa was virtually 100% estranged from both God and Christ during the
whole five decades of her work in India. She experienced a darkness of the
soul unparalleled among Catholic mystics. Some say this was in preparation
for her eventual sainthood. But Paul the apostle was a "saint" and he never
once experienced Teresa's depth of abandonment. In point of fact, he never
experienced any abandonment whatsoever; nor should any other of Christ's
followers.

†. John 14:15-18 . .If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray
the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, that He may abide with
you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it
neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you
and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

†. John 14:23 . .If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father
will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

†. John 15:10 . .If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love,
just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.

†. Phlp 4:5-7 . .The Lord is nearby. Do not be anxious about anything, but in
everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your concerns
to God. And the peace of God, which is beyond the intellect, will guard your
hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

†. Rom 8:15-16 . .For you have not received a spirit of slavery again to fear;
but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out; Abba!
Father! The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

The Spirit's silence in Teresa's heart, and her utter lack of peace, were
indicative of something very gone-wrong in her association with Christ.

†. 1John 1:5-7 . .This is the message we have heard from him and declare
to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have
fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the
truth.

Father Neuner, one of Teresa's spiritual advisors commented: "Why had God
abandoned her totally? She had to lead the Sisters, initiate them into the
love of God and into a life of prayer, which had been wiped out in her own
life as she lived in total emptiness. Had she become a shameful hypocrite
who spoke to others about the divine mysteries which had totally vanished
from her own heart?"

All evidence points to the obvious conclusion that Teresa was the most
convincing Christian pretense the twentieth century ever produced; and if
she was a charlatan, who else is playing church inside the Church?

†. Matt 7:22-23 . .Many will say to me in that day; Lord, Master, have we
not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in
thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them; I
never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Christ's statement doesn't target Atheists, nor Buddhists, nor Hindus, nor
Muslims. No, it targets people professing to have prophesied in "thy name",
and to have exorcised demons in "thy name", and to have done may
wonderful works in "thy name"; viz: it targets Christians-- and not just your
average rank and file pew warmers either, no, but rather, it targets the
cream of the crop; the celebrities of the Christian world; renowned for their
accomplishments, their piety, their perseverance, their love, and their
dedication.

It is to many of those very kinds of Christians that Christ will say: I never
knew you. Why? Because though those luminaries glistered, they were never
in league with Christ though they certainly appeared to be; and that is really
scary because it make one wonder who to trust.

Recommended Reading:

Mother Teresa / Come Be My Light
The Private Writings of the "Saint of Calcutta"
Edited with commentary by Father Brian Kolodiejchuk, M.C.
ISBN 978-0-385-52037-9

NOTE: The book is a collection of Teresa's letters written privately to
spiritual counselors; published with hierarchy approval by her long-time
friend Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk M.C.; director of the Mother Teresa Center,
and a Postulator in favor of her canonization.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
 

everready

New member
-
Rome's poster child, Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (a.k.a. Mother Teresa) is a
terrible disappointment. It turns out Teresa was a remarkable actor. Her
public image bore no resemblance whatsoever to the secret life of her inner
being. Below are some quotes taken from her own private letters; and
excerpts of her statements from other sources. You be the judge: role model
or role player, believer or make-believer?

"Only pray that I keep up this joy exteriorly. I deceive people with this
weapon-- even my Sisters."

"I am grateful to for all the kindness & help you give to my Sisters and me.
My prayer, though miserably dry & frozen, is often offered for you & your
work for souls."

"When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting
emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my
very soul. How painful is this unknown pain-- I have no faith."

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness &
emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"Now Father-- since 49 or 50 this terrible sense of loss-- this untold
darkness-- this loneliness, this continual longing for God-- which gives me
pain deep down in my heart-- Darkness is such that I really do not see
neither with my mind nor with my reason-- the place of God in my soul is
blank-- There is no God in me-- when the pain of longing is so great-- I just
long & long for God-- and then it is that I feel-- He does not want me-- He is
not there-- God does not want me-- Sometimes-- I just hear my own heart
cry out-- "My God" and nothing else comes-- the torture and pain I can't
explain"

"My smile is a great cloak that hides a multitude of pains."

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment
with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I
feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not
really exist."

"If there be God . . please forgive me."

"Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim
or a better Protestant. Once you've found God, it's up to you to decide how
to worship him" (Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths, Associated Press,
9/7/97).

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of
Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's
presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for
this better men-- simply better --we will be satisfied. It matters to the
individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes
that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes
into their life-- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no
doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."

The April 7-13, 1990, issue of Radio Times tells the story of Mother Teresa
sheltering an old Hindu priest. "She nursed him with her own hands and
helped him to die reconciled with his own gods."

Teresa was virtually 100% estranged from both God and Christ during the
whole five decades of her work in India. She experienced a darkness of the
soul unparalleled among Catholic mystics. Some say this was in preparation
for her eventual sainthood. But Paul the apostle was a "saint" and he never
once experienced Teresa's depth of abandonment. In point of fact, he never
experienced any abandonment whatsoever; nor should any other of Christ's
followers.

†. John 14:15-18 . .If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray
the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, that He may abide with
you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it
neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you
and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

†. John 14:23 . .If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father
will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

†. John 15:10 . .If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love,
just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in His love.

†. Phlp 4:5-7 . .The Lord is nearby. Do not be anxious about anything, but in
everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your concerns
to God. And the peace of God, which is beyond the intellect, will guard your
hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

†. Rom 8:15-16 . .For you have not received a spirit of slavery again to fear;
but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out; Abba!
Father! The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

The Spirit's silence in Teresa's heart, and her utter lack of peace, were
indicative of something very gone-wrong in her association with Christ.

†. 1John 1:5-7 . .This is the message we have heard from him and declare
to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have
fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the
truth.

Father Neuner, one of Teresa's spiritual advisors commented: "Why had God
abandoned her totally? She had to lead the Sisters, initiate them into the
love of God and into a life of prayer, which had been wiped out in her own
life as she lived in total emptiness. Had she become a shameful hypocrite
who spoke to others about the divine mysteries which had totally vanished
from her own heart?"

All evidence points to the obvious conclusion that Teresa was the most
convincing Christian pretense the twentieth century ever produced; and if
she was a charlatan, who else is playing church inside the Church?

†. Matt 7:22-23 . .Many will say to me in that day; Lord, Master, have we
not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in
thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them; I
never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Christ's statement doesn't target Atheists, nor Buddhists, nor Hindus, nor
Muslims. No, it targets people professing to have prophesied in "thy name",
and to have exorcised demons in "thy name", and to have done may
wonderful works in "thy name"; viz: it targets Christians-- and not just your
average rank and file pew warmers either, no, but rather, it targets the
cream of the crop; the celebrities of the Christian world; renowned for their
accomplishments, their piety, their perseverance, their love, and their
dedication.

It is to many of those very kinds of Christians that Christ will say: I never
knew you. Why? Because though those luminaries glistered, they were never
in league with Christ though they certainly appeared to be; and that is really
scary because it make one wonder who to trust.

Recommended Reading:

Mother Teresa / Come Be My Light
The Private Writings of the "Saint of Calcutta"
Edited with commentary by Father Brian Kolodiejchuk, M.C.
ISBN 978-0-385-52037-9

NOTE: The book is a collection of Teresa's letters written privately to
spiritual counselors; published with hierarchy approval by her long-time
friend Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk M.C.; director of the Mother Teresa Center,
and a Postulator in favor of her canonization.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==

i think the best example of this from scripture is Judas:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Even the other disciples thought he was the real article.


everready
 

WeberHome

New member
-
†. Matt 16:18 . . I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail
against it.

The verse above was taken from the Douay Rheims. Modern versions of the
Bible have changed the wording just a bit to more accurately reflect what
Jesus actually said, because hell (as we usually understand hell) is incorrect
since the Greek text doesn't use the word geena; instead, it uses haides,
which is just simply the afterlife; so that the verse should read like this:

†. Matt 16:18 . . I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld will
not overcome it.

Some versions substitute the word "powers" for gates, but the Greek word is
pule (poo'-lay); which literally does mean a gate, viz: the leaf or wing of a
folding entrance. So then, the netherworld is depicted as a walled
community; the entrance to and/or exit from is controlled by gates the likes
of those in the walls of the old city of Jerusalem, which had twelve gates.
Gates then, are designed to either keep people in or to keep people out.
apparently the purpose of the netherworld's gates is to keep people in.

According to Jonah, the netherworld's gates are like the bars of a prison.
(Jonah 2:6)

Christ testified that his church could not be held by the bars of the
netherworld. He didn't say some of his church, nor most of his church.
Seeing as how he didn't qualify his statement, I think it's pretty safe to
assume Christ meant his entire church; from the lowliest pew warmer to the
top of the hierarchy.

Roman Catholicism insists that it alone is Christ's church. So then, if Rome's
claim is true, then the gates of the netherworld should be powerless to
permanently confine even one Catholic. In other words: no Catholic should
be in danger of going to hell.

†. John 6:39-40 . .This is the will of Him who sent me: that I shall lose none
of all that He has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my
Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall
have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

But the fact of the matter is: Rome cannot guarantee its followers 100%
safety from the wrath of God; but instead, fully expects to lose a number of
its people to hell; and that should not be if Roman Catholicism is Christ's
true church; especially seeing as how Christ is the custodian of the keys to
the netherworld's gates.

†. Rev 1:18 . . I hold the keys of death and the afterlife.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in
God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their
sins, but they have already transferred from death into life.

†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep heed my voice, and I know them, and they
follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

How many Roman Catholics can honestly say: I have eternal life, I have
passed from death into life, I will never be condemned for my sins, and I will
never perish. The truth is: they better not make such a claim because the
Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16 slams all such with
anathema for professing that kind of confidence.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
Rome is, historically, our classical society. The Western world ultimately came from that part of the world as far as culture and technology. It's too bad the Church, like Adam and Eve, fell from it's grace and had to be reformed..
#Protestantism
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Your tacit claim that Jesus Christ lied in Matthew 16:18 is noted.

See also this.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Peter is not the rock upon which the Church is built, Christ is. Peter says this himself;

1 Peter 2:6-7 New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
 

brewmama

New member
Peter is not the rock upon which the Church is built, Christ is. Peter says this himself;

1 Peter 2:6-7 New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

No one denies that Christ is the cornerstone. Why do you deny Jesus' own words about Peter though?
 

WeberHome

New member
-
Why do you deny Jesus' own words about Peter?

It seems to me that the one person who would know best about what Christ
said as per Matt 16:18 is Peter. As I have yet to find anything in Peter's
writings even so much as suggesting that he himself is "this rock" upon
which Christ is building his church, then I really think Rome's position should
be regarded as an unproven theory.

BTW: Christ wasn't talking about a stone at Matt 16:18, nor was he talking
about a rock; he was talking about bedrock. Peter isn't bedrock, he's just a
chunk of rock. (John 1:42)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 

WeberHome

New member
-
†. 1Pet 3:15 . . Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks
you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

That passage should probably always accompany this next one.

†. Rom 8:23-25 . .We ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit,
groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons: the redemption
of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no
hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we
do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

The New Testament Greek word for "hope" in those passages is elpis (el
pece') which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure)and to expect with
confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, and
confidence.

Webster's definition of hope as a verb is very similar: 1) to desire with
expectation of obtainment, and 2) to expect with confidence and trust. Note
the elements of expectation, and confidence, and trust.

Webster's definition of hope as a noun is: 1) a desire accompanied by
expectation of, or belief in, fulfillment, and 2) expectation of fulfillment or
success. Note the elements of expectation, and belief.

NOTE: Some folk object to Webster's in a Bible study, but unless those of us
who speak English base our language upon a universal standard, we risk
ending up back at the Tower of Babel.

The plan of salvation includes not only rescue from the wrath of God, but
also rescue from despair and feelings of futility. In other words: unbelievers
do not expect to survive the demise of their bodies, nor do they expect to
get another body in the afterlife; let alone a better body-- one that's
superior in all respects to the body they have now. Believers expect to not
only survive the demise of their body; but also to get a better body-- one
that's superior in all respects to the one they have now.

When somebody has that kind of hope, it rescues them from despair and
feelings of futility. In other words: the unbeliever's current existence is
futile, but the believer's current existence is merely a stepping stone to
something better. Believers have something to look forward to while
unbelievers have nothing to look forward to. That's what it means to be
"saved by hope". In other words: saved from having nothing to look forward
to. (cf. 1Cor 15:51-54)

†. Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope.

When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind
dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for rejoicing; no; but they
do have plenty of cause to fear the unknown.

Does an adherent of Catholicism have elpis hope? I don't think so; and in
point of fact, Church dogma forbids having it.

Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16: If anyone says that he
will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift
of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a
special revelation, let him be anathema. (cf. CCC 1020)

Webster's defines "anathema" as: a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by
ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication.

Since Rome doesn't permit elpis hope, then it's de facto that Rome's
constituents can't possibly comply with Peter's command to give a reason for
having it.

The Bible says that elpis hope is a "calling"

†. Eph 4:5 . .you were called to one hope when you were called

Catholicism's hope is not Peter's elpis hope; but rather, a somewhat nervous
state of anxiety and wishful thinking that hovers within a hair's breadth of
bitter disappointment.

The Council aside; it only stands to reason, that any candidate for a better
body who is in the process of working out their own salvation with fear and
trembling as per Rome's interpretation of Phlp 2:12, cannot possibly have
elpis hope.

Think about it. If a candidate for salvation is still in the process of working
out their own salvation with fear and trembling, then it's obvious they do not
believe themselves to have a better body locked in yet; ergo: no
conscientious Catholic can honestly look forward to a better body with a
100% doubt-free expectation of obtaining it; viz: they do not yet have the
kind of hope about which Peter wrote in 1Pet 3:15, nor the kind of hope
about which Paul wrote in Eph 4:5; and if they claim otherwise, then they
merit the penalty of Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The main item of the Council of Trent was that justification was infusa. That meant that it was confused with the process of personal transformation, which is a big mistake. Gratia imputa which the Reformation taught was saying that justification dealt with the debt of sin; imputation is a bookkeeping term, after all. Actually it is staggering how many teachers today dwell on personal transformation and think that they are talking about justification.
 

brewmama

New member
-


It seems to me that the one person who would know best about what Christ
said as per Matt 16:18 is Peter. As I have yet to find anything in Peter's
writings even so much as suggesting that he himself is "this rock" upon
which Christ is building his church, then I really think Rome's position should
be regarded as an unproven theory.

BTW: Christ wasn't talking about a stone at Matt 16:18, nor was he talking
about a rock; he was talking about bedrock. Peter isn't bedrock, he's just a
chunk of rock. (John 1:42)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

That's what happens when you limit yourself to Bible only, you ignore all of history and tradition, even apostolic tradition. Not everything was written down in the Bible, as even the Bible points out. Some things were universally known in all the churches, yet you throw it out.
 

Cruciform

New member
Christ wasn't talking about a stone at Matt 16:18, nor was he talking about a rock; he was talking about bedrock. Peter isn't bedrock, he's just a chunk of rock. (John 1:42)
Already definitively answered---and corrected---in Post #228 above.
 

WeberHome

New member
-
It's often alleged by people ignorant of RCC history that the Church has
always believed that "this rock" about which Christ spoke at Matt 16:18 is
Peter.

Rome’s rule for explaining the Scriptures and determining doctrine is the
Creed of Pius IV. This Creed binds Rome to explain the Scriptures only
according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers. But watch this:

In the year 1870 when the Fathers gathered and the Pope declared his
infallibility, the Cardinals were not in agreement on Matt 16:18. They held
no less than five differing interpretations.


Seventeen insisted Peter is the rock.

Sixteen held that Christ is the rock.

Eight were emphatic that the whole apostolic college is the rock.

Forty-four said Peter’s faith is the rock.

The remainder looked upon the whole body of believers as the rock.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
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