Standing Up To Rome

turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
chrysostom said:
good for you

all our bibles are man made
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That's not how I understand it.

Gal. 1:11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

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Cruciform said:
Medieval history, for one, specifically the established fact that your supposed "50 million" far exceeds the entire population of Europe in the Middle Ages! Try again. :doh:
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We're talking 600 years. What number is agreeable? 1 Million? 10,000? 1,000?
 
Cruciform

Cruciform

New member
everready said:
Rome didn't give us Gods word.
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Already categorically refuted in the very post to which you're replying.

Question: Wasn’t it the Catholic Church that was responsible for the Bible being written? Answer: No. The Catholic Church tried to take credit for what the Lord did without their help.
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Your assumption that the Bible somehow descended from the heavens fully-formed---without the secondary causality of human agency---is noted. :darwinsm:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
Cruciform said:
Post your proof.
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Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved

After these people heard the gospel.

Acts 2:....."Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.........41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

When one hears the gospel, believes and is baptized they are added to the body of Christ which was established at his D,B & R. Not recently invented. No rcc needed.
 
Cruciform

Cruciform

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turbosixx said:
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.
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Who is the "them" to whom Jesus is speaking? It is specifically the apostles, the original Magisterium of Christ's one historic Church. It is therefore that one historic Church---and not thousands of man-made sects some fifteen-hundred years later---which has been called to preach, teach, and administer the sacraments.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit... 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
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And to what were they "added," specifically? To Christ's one historic Church led and infallibly taught by the apostles and their ordained successors, the bishops (Ac. 15:2; 16:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6), that is, the Magisterium. Likewise with Christ's one historic Church---the Catholic Church---today.

When one hears the gospel, believes and is baptized they are added to the body of Christ...
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According to the New Testament, to be baptized into Christ's Church is likewise to be initiated into Christ's Body. If you're not related to the Church, you have no place in the Body either.

Not recently invented.
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The Catholic Church is not recently-invented---though your favored man-made non-Catholic sect certainly is.

No CC needed.
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Your claim that that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D., and against which he declared that the gates of hell would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19; 1 Tim. 3:15), is "not needed" is noted. :doh:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
WeberHome

WeberHome

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†. Rom 14:14-15 . . I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing
is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is
unclean.

Although that passage primarily regards foods, it lays down an important
principle; viz: Be it unto you according to your conscience (cf. Rom 2:12
15).

Therefore, Rome's followers shall be judged according to their religion of
choice; ergo: they shall be punished for their every failing to comply with all
that Rome teaches and stands for-- all ten of the Ten Commandments, all of
its Traditions; every Bull, every Encyclical, every Vatican Council, and every
thing in the Catechism from first to last; along with everything in the
Sermon On The Mount and in the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, John, and
Jude. And God rewards neither effort nor good intentions; He only rewards
success.

†. Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is going to come a day of judgment when God,
the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they
have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is
good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But
he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who
refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds.

. . .There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning--
for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor
and peace from God for all who do good-- for the Jew first and also for the
Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

The difficulty with obtaining glory, honor, and immortality via performance is
that God demands persistence (Rom 2:7) viz: doing what's good not just
some of the time, nor even most of the time, but all the time. I'd venture to
say that none in Rome have succeeded in doing good all the time; not even
the Pope; so how can Rome reasonably expect it's followers to succeed with
persistence? In point of fact, any Catholic, including the Pope, who thinks
they have what it takes to be persistent at doing good is in very big trouble.

Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon16: If anyone says that he will
for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of
perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special
revelation, let him be anathema.

Webster's defines "anathema" as a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by
ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication.

At the very least, Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon16
denounces those among Rome's followers brazen enough to think they have
what it takes to be persistent at even trying to do good, let alone
succeeding; and rightly so seeing as how no doubt Rome itself has yet to
succeed in consistently exemplifying even so much as the Beatitudes or the
Sermon On The Mount; let alone the rest of the New Testament. Ergo:
seeking after glory and honor and immortality via Roman Catholicism is an
iffy proposition at best.

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everready

everready

New member
Cruciform said:
Already categorically refuted in the very post to which you're replying.


Your assumption that the Bible somehow descended from the heavens fully-formed---without the secondary causality of human agency---is noted. :darwinsm:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
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You think its funny do you, no it wasn't fully formed, men like John Wycliffe gave us the bible, but Rome didn't care much for it:

The first hand-written English language Bible manuscripts were produced in 1380's AD by John Wycliffe, an Oxford professor, scholar, and theologian. Wycliffe, (also spelled “Wycliff” & “Wyclif”), was well-known throughout Europe for his opposition to the teaching of the organized Church, which he believed to be contrary to the Bible.

With the help of his followers, called the Lollards, and his assistant Purvey, and many other faithful scribes, Wycliffe produced dozens of English language manuscript copies of the scriptures. They were translated out of the Latin Vulgate, which was the only source text available to Wycliffe.

The Pope was so infuriated by his teachings and his translation of the Bible into English, that 44 years after Wycliffe had died, he ordered the bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river!

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-wycliffe.html

Why won't you listen to the Lord?

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


everready
 
everready

everready

New member
Cruciform said:
On Wycliffe, see this.

On anti-Catholic claims about the Catholic Church and the Bible, see this, this, this, and this.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
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The Inquisitors got him, by the way why did John Paul II reopen the Office Of The Inquisitions?

Pope John Paul II Revives Inquisition
By Kathleen R. Hayes

Feb 1991, NRI Trumpet Page 3

The thought of a revived Holy Office of the Inquisition would pacify some and offend others. Nevertheless, the "Holy Office" still exists. Only it's name has been changed. Pope John Paul II has been instrumental in its revival. One may argue that this Ratzinger run agency is merely an attempt by the Catholic Church to root out communism or backslidden priests and their practices.

However, with John Paul II's objective to implement "God's mandate" by creating a global church-state which will administer from traditional Roman Catholic theology, is enough cause for alarm. Malachi Martin has already stated in his book, "The Keys of this Blood," that the pope will not tolerate any belief systems that oppose his, not on a civil or church level.

In John Paul II the world will behold a tyrant who will coldly execute direct orders against those whom he deems are heretics or immoral. Moreover, like his papal predecessors, John Paul II will carry out his "Godly mandate" in the name of Christ, or perhaps Mary. May God help us all.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/inquisition.htm

She's right and God will help those that are in Christ.


everready
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
Cruciform said:
Who is the "them" to whom Jesus is speaking? It is specifically the apostles, the original Magisterium of Christ's one historic Church. It is therefore that one historic Church---and not thousands of man-made sects some fifteen-hundred years later---which has been called to preach, teach, and administer the sacraments.


And to what were they "added," specifically? To Christ's one historic Church led and infallibly taught by the apostles and their ordained successors, the bishops (Ac. 15:2; 16:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6), that is, the Magisterium. Likewise with Christ's one historic Church---the Catholic Church---today.


According to the New Testament, to be baptized into Christ's Church is likewise to be initiated into Christ's Body. If you're not related to the Church, you have no place in the Body either.


The Catholic Church is not recently-invented---though your favored man-made non-Catholic sect certainly is.


Your claim that that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D., and against which he declared that the gates of hell would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19; 1 Tim. 3:15), is "not needed" is noted. :doh:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
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We're getting no where because we us different things for our authority. I'll be praying for you.
 
Cruciform

Cruciform

New member
turbosixx said:
We're getting no where because we us different things for our authority.
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Indeed. And your inability to offer any valid counter-response to Post #210 above is proof that your authority---that is, your personal interpretations (opinions) of the Bible---is both unbiblical and unChristian.

I'll be praying for you.
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Likewise.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
A

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
It has been said America is now an empire. It stretches everywhere around the globe and uses violence as well as diplomacy.

The Roman Empire was violent as well and in a few times was diplomatic when it served them well.

When the little band of believers merged into the Holy Roman Empire in 325 AD (C.E.) their world and faith profoundly changed.

Among Christians, it was once an understanding that no man would join the empire’s armies. But after the Roman Emperor Constantine “converted” it soon became mandatory for able bodied Christians to join the military.

Many of the writings in Paul’s gospel show an attempt to separate the new faith from the goings and comings of the empire that surrounded him. But the “wall of separation” was finally breached.

In my opinion, we largely have a religion that Jesus would have rejected,
My only faith is to hold to Jesus and see him as the “norm” of the Bible.
I try to offer feedback both here and in my Bible study to start seeing Christianity in the context of a complex global world.
 
WeberHome

WeberHome

New member
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A false premise like "Rome Has Spoken" renders Rome's followers vulnerable
to scotoma; which, if you've seen The Davinci Code, you know is a
subconsciously induced psychological blindness caused by the mind's
propensity to disregard concepts that are incongruous with deep seated,
preconceived notions.

Scotoma is a serious condition. It causes people to disregard what Christ has
spoken in favor of what Rome has spoken. Curiously, they don't deliberately
disregard what Christ has spoken in favor of what Rome has spoken; they
actually do so without even thinking about it because scotoma is a mental
weakness rather then a weakness of the will.

For example: note the grammatical tense of Christ's statement below. It's in
the present tense rather than future, indicating that people who correctly
imbibe his blood, and correctly ingest his flesh, obtain eternal life right now,
rather than later in the next life after they pass on.

†. John 6:54 . .Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

The average pew warmer's mind will miss the grammatical tense of Christ's
statement; and without even thinking push the possession of eternal life into
the future because the pew warmer has had it drilled into their head ever
since catechism that the afterlife is where people obtain eternal life; and
there is no use in debating this issue with them because their belief is a
deep-seated, preconceived notion that will resist any and all reasoning to the
contrary no matter how well presented.

Here's another example:

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

According to Christ's statement, the one possessing eternal life will never be
condemned for their sins; which means they are guaranteed to persevere to
the end. Ironically, the Church severely disciplines people who believe such
things.

Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16: If anyone says that he
will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift
of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a
special revelation, let him be anathema.

I sincerely believe that Christ's statements qualify as special revelations.
Rome doesn't agree? Well all I can say is: shame on Rome.

†. John 3:34 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's
Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who
does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on
him.

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WeberHome

WeberHome

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In essence, the beads of a rosary are little more than a string of rote prayers
rather than the candor commanded by Heb 4:16. So then rosaries are in
essence a string of mantras repeated over and over and over again, which is
a clear violation of not only Heb 4:16, but also Christ's God-given
instructions.

†. Matt 6:7-9 . . In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that
they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them. Your
Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

I appeal not only to your reason, but also to your sensibilities. Suppose the
door bell rang one day and when you opened up-- yikes! --it was God
himself in person! Would you welcome God into your home by reading from
a missal and/or chanting a rosary; or would you greet Him as you do real
visitors? Well, the Bible's God is real; so treat Him with the courtesy and
respect that His intelligence deserves if you expect Him to reciprocate and
treat you with courtesy and respect in return.

Do you speak to your friends, your associates, your spouse, your domestic
partner, your significant other, your doctor, your dentist, supermarket
cashiers, or the cops by repeating the same thing over and over again? Of
course not. They would write you off as one in desperate need of therapy if
you did. Then why would anyone think it makes sense to speak to God by
saying the same thing over and over again?

Don't you think He looks upon rote chanters as mental cases when they do
that? Of course He does; who wouldn't? How would you like it if everybody
spoke to you like that? Well, He doesn't like it either. God is far more
intelligent than anybody you could possibly name and rote chanters are
treating Him like a totem pole. The Bible's God is a king who deserves far
more respect than a US President yet people are speaking to Him like a tape
recorder rather than the ultimate Sovereign that He is.

Don't ever treat Christ's father like some sort of sounding board. Not even
Forrest Gump would appreciate being spoken to in rote, and God's IQ is way
higher than Forrest's; so how do you suppose He feels about being
addressed in rote. The Bible's God is a sentient, sensible person; and we all
need to show some respect for His intelligence. I guarantee He will be most
grateful for your regard.

A very serious flaw with rosaries is the number of mantras devoted, not to
God, but to a woman-- Jesus' mom --which is in direct opposition to the
spirit of God's son, and the spirit of adoption.

†. Rom 8:15-17 . . For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to
fear; but you have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we call out: Abba!
Father.

†. Gal 4:6 . . And because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of His
son into your hearts calling out: Abba! Father.

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