Notice how the Lord had just said, "God knoweth your hearts....and knows what is "abomination in the sight of God". God knows this way before you draw your last breath....God "knowing" is God judging whatever abominations are in your heart.
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
We see many judgments. Here, for instance, the righteous
judgment of God recompenses tribulation to them that trouble you. Just as God did to Pharaoh when crossing the Red Sea.
2 Thessalonians 1:4-6
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Yes! and all of those judgments are executed while in the body. In Revelation that trend is continued--the bodies of all are raised,
after which they are judged. So the standard scenario that I think you are promoting, is that if you die as an unbeliever, you are (somehow) judged to be an unbeliever and your soul is sentenced to wait in a proverbial holding cell in Hades until judgment day comes.
On judgment day you will be raised--reunited with your body--and stand before the Lord for judgment, at which time He will sentence you (soul and body) to be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. So, IF the unbelievers are able to be tormented in their soulish, bodiless state, why would God need to raise their bodies from the dead--meaning He will build them NEW bodies, because the old ones have been eaten by worms or burned to ashes, and then throw those bodies into fire, which must burn them all up again almost immediately, leaving them in a soulish, bodiless state again, and again tormented in the flame. What's the difference between the pre-hell Hades and the Lake of Fire hell?
Notice also, the rich man was buried, but the beggar was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Yes, I noticed that! I noticed that the "rich man" was buried, but Lazarus was carried. This sentence, to be categorically consistent, must either be talking about both the rich man's and Lazarus's BODIES, or about their SOULS. It is internally inconsistent for the rich man's BODY to be buried and Lazarus's SOUL to be considered in the same sentence without some kind of clarification.
So, to be consistent, let's try putting the words "body" or "soul" in the passage:
Option 1: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and [his body] was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and [his body] was buried;
Option 2: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and [his soul] was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and [his soul] was buried;
Do you see the inconsistency? It either says that Lazarus retained his BODY, or that the rich man's SOUL was buried in the dirt. I think you and I would both reject the latter, so is it possible that the former can still work? I think so. If the rich man was resurrected and judged, then he would find himself in Hell or Hades and "in torments".
There was no literal water, there was no literal flame, there was no literal tongue or fingers....just as there is no physical ARM of God. The Bible is full of this...why does this part bother you so much? Their actual physical bodies were decaying as this conversation was going on.
Why then do you need a literal rich man in a literal Hades? Was the rich man deluded into thinking he had a tongue or that Lazarus had fingers? Maybe their was no literal Lazarus, either, and no literal Abraham. Maybe it was all...a...story??? I'm glad to see your perspective starting to change, even if you only admit SOME of it is
a parable. That's kind of where I am, too. I think SOME of it is a parable.
The Lord had no yet risen from the dead, so Abraham's bosom was still below, where he could look across the divide into Hades. Does that sound like the final judgment had already taken place? If it had then that isn't much of a heaven, is it?
Why not? Are you saying that kind of heaven isn't allowed?
Here's what Jesus said about the final judgment: [Mat 16:27 KJV] 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and
then he shall reward every man according to his works.
And this is what John saw:[Rev 20:12 ESV] 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books,
according to what they had done.
The judgment is still to come, according to Jesus. So how is it that the rich man was already judged for his works?[Luk 16:25 KJV] 25 But Abraham said, Son,
remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Instead, after the Lord had risen there is a whole family in heaven and earth, and that would certainly include Abraham in heaven.
Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
That's a good reference, GD. I'll give that one some thought. Matthew Henry said that there were two camps on it, one that thought it meant what you are suggesting, and one that thought it was merely talking about Jews and gentiles all now being in Christ.
We all wait....wherever we are, we wait, We wait for the Glory of the Lord to appear, and for the resurrection of our bodies, and for the New Heaven and Earth. Life is a waiting game...not a sleeping game. Only our physical bodies sleep in the dust waiting to be raised at the resurrection of the dead.
Life might be a waiting game, but death isn't. To be waiting, you have to be able to tell that time is passing, you have to sense things, you must actually be alive and have cognition. That's the whole question we're trying to figure out--can you be dead without really being dead? Or, after dying, can you be alive without being resurrected? The words themselves tell us an answer, if we can trust the words.
