All this applies to Joe Montana. Joe Montana was a system QB. He played in what is probably the most famous system in NFL history, The West Coast Offense.
Unlike Tom, he won with a second team, performing well enough to beat a loaded Niners team he'd left even after he was, by any objective examination, about physically done. And while the Chiefs played a similar style of offense, the "West Coast" offense was more approach than it was defined by particular plays. And all of football is either run, pass short, or deep and what emphasis you place on what particular.
Steve DeBerg played in the West Coast Offense in 1979. This was Bill Walsh's first year as 49ers head coach and DeBerg's second year in the NFL. DeBerg led the NFL in pass completions and pass attempts.
DeBerg never had a qb rating higher than 73 with the Niners and threw more ints than tds with them, which is part of the reason he wasn't there very long. He had some talent and one really good year, late in his career.
Nothing like the success that Brady's backups have had in Bill's system.
Steve Young was a terrible QB in Tampa.
He looked like many rookie qbs in his first truncated year. In sum, his first two years saw him playing just a couple of more games than one full regular season. And Manning was awful in his first 16 starts. Favre was bad enough early that Atlanta moved him without any real regret.
It happens early for some. It takes maturation, games under center. Or it did before enough rules were changed that playing the position became much easier, as it did for Peyton, Tom, and that generation of qb, which is why Marino's long wait as the singular member of the 5k club suddenly found him in a modern crowd.
He comes to the 49ers and the West Coast Offense turns Young into a Hall of Famer.
It was more about being given real time under center and particular tailoring to his strengths when Montana was down for long stretches over two years. He had uncommon skills. in 88 he subbed for double digit games and showed something, though his overall performance was of a really good backup with flashes, mostly regarding his legs and the impact of that mobility. The next year he was still under center for 11 games, with the offense tinkered to maximize his impact and, unsurprisingly, he realized a lot of his potential.
Elvis Grbac put up way better numbers as a 49er than he did playing anywhere else.
A little misleading. He started a grand total of 9 games in 3 years for SF. Hard to say what a guy has with that limited a sampling. In 95 he started 4 games and threw 8 tds against 5 picks. The next year he started 5 and regressed, with 8 tds against 10 picks. Over time and with more games he did better, but even in the similar Chiefs offense he never really took off, spent most of his career looking like the decent backup that he was.
But my larger point is what is wrong with being a system QB?
Nothing at all, but it contextualizes the level of play and accomplishments, just as understanding rules changes will.
You seem to use it as a pejorative. In a sense every NFL QB is a system QB.
I think teams and systems impact how we see qbs, unless they have the opportunity to shine in multiple locals, which rarely happens, or they do as well with different team mates. Montana managed both. Warner did it. Peyton too, though both Kurt and Manning played in easier eras than Joe.
Weren't Dan Fouts and Dan Marino also system QB's?
If by system, with Dan, you mean the gave him the ball and said find a way. Fouts would be more of a fit for that, though he was largely overrated, gaining most of his reputation in three great years.
Both put up incredible passing numbers in their era. Marino's record 5,084 passing yards in 1984 stood as the NFL record for 27 years until the NFL gutted their rules to make passing far easier.
Yep. He and Joe played when the sort of performances they managed were much harder to come by. It's one reason why I rate them higher and an tougher on the qbs that followed.
This doesn't prove that Joe wasn't a system QB. The Chiefs implemented a variant of the West Coast Offense.
Well, football isn't dramatically different in any system, unless you're the Bears.
With Tom I look at him riding the team to the first ring, a-la Big Ben. He won and got to the first three by fgs. I think he was overrated early, though he grew into one of the best I've ever seen by the time he was in his prime. Amazing to watch.
I think the real advantage Tom had that Marino almost never did, top ten defenses and a coach that would hamper the other team, adjust as well as anyone I've seen on the fly, and give his qb the chance to win with solid play. Because almost without exception, that's when Brady and company won their rings and how.
Joe often played great in the postseason but not always. Joe was terrible in 1987 losing to the Wild Card Vikings at home. Joe was so bad that he was benched at half time. Then there's the 49-3 thrashing Joe and 49ers took from the Giants in 1986. But in Super Bowl play Joe was the best. No doubt about that.
Yeah. Every qb has a few of those. Peyton and Brady, despite the rules change, had a few stinkers. But on the biggest stage, and I know we're agreeing, it's Joe. To me, that's why he's the GOAT. Though I'll say this about Tom, I've never seen anyone do it that well for that long. He's the Jabbar of the NFL.
Terrible, terrible injury for KD. :-( We'll have to see how bad the injury is.
It was my concern, but for what it's worth I think it may have made the team a different animal. I can't see your guys winning out, but I'm rooting for them.
