"Son of Man"

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It was a bunch of conjectures given by gnostics, Origen, and Augustine.
Nonsense.
  • I have a Bible.
  • I can read the Bible.
  • The Bible says that Jesus is God.
God didn't become human or pre-human.
Wrong. See John 1
Maybe you should look up Hermes and Zeus in Acts.
Maybe not.
It never happened, so GOD hasn't requested we believe in an abomination or a sin offering as a Passover. The death was necessary for the resurrection the which started the march of the Israelite faiths. It didn't redeem mankind, but rather shamed it into doing better things, just like Job shamed the early Hebrews.
Vain babbling. Go to some anti-Christian sites if you want some pals.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Not sure I'm following you. The person of Jesus is God in the flesh. His person is God, in a "body prepared for Him". He does not have two minds, natures, or wills. We have to understand what it means for Jesus to not grasp equality with God, by us being able to grasp what His humanity entails. Jesus divested Himself (becoming a man) of the knowledge of His divinity. You and I are born without access to things of God, because they are spiritually discerned. Until we are made alive, all we can do is understand the things of the world through what we observe. Once we receive the Spirit of God (made alive) then we have full access to the things of God. Jesus was born alive. He had full access to the things of God from birth, and though He is God, He chose not to have full comprehension, but to submit to the Father. He grew in His understanding through full access spiritually. In other words, He took on flesh and blood as a man, so that He could obey the Father perfectly.

Jesus defeated death by raising His body from the dead. He never ceased to be God. He was never separated from who He is, but in His flesh (mind, will, emotions) he tasted (experienced) separation as a man, which speaks clearly of having divested Himself from full comprehension.

How, specifically, do you say His comprehension was limited?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
So He was not really God who knows all things?
No, He is really God but chose to only know those things revealed to Him from His Father in His human body.

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered"

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
 

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No, He is really God but chose to only know those things revealed to Him from His Father in His human body.

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered"
"Learning obedience" has nothing to with limiting His knowledge. You are confusing the meaning of that passage.
 

OZOS

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"Learning obedience" has nothing to with limiting His knowledge. You are confusing the meaning of that passage.
Absolutely not, you simply lack an understanding of what it means for Jesus to be God in the flesh, and it's morons like you that create morons like Hilltrot.
 

JudgeRightly

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Nope - not straw man.

Yes, it was a straw man. No one here is "trying to weasel out of Jesus' humanity and death in order to prove that Jesus is the one true God."

If you define death and/or human as anything other than what they would normally mean, you are equivocating. You are playing semantics.

Obfuscation.

@Hilltrot Please define "died."

If that means simply copying and pasting the definition provided by a dictionary, then so be it. If it means providing a definition of your own choosing, so be it. If it means providing a definition taken from the Bible, so be it.

So far, you have yet to provide the definition you use for "died." Please tell us so that we can stop talking past each other.
 

JudgeRightly

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. . .did God die? . . . God can't die. . . . Christ died . . . He could overcome death. He didn't die like a man dies . . . He died . . .

Define "die"
Define "death"
Define "died"
Define "dies"
 

JudgeRightly

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God didn't become human or pre-human.

και θεος ην ο λογος
και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο
κεκληται το ονομα αυτου ο λογος του θεου

It's as plain as day. Why do you deny scripture?
 

OZOS

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You have some strange beliefs.
"Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things."
 
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JudgeRightly

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And the gentiles who were converts were grafted into Israel.

Yes, the gentiles who believed what Peter and the other 11 were teaching, the New Covenant, were grafted into Israel, up until the unbelieving portion was cut off.

Before that point, the Body of Christ did not exist.
 

Omniskeptical

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και θεος ην ο λογος
και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο
κεκληται το ονομα αυτου ο λογος του θεου

It's as plain as day. Why do you deny scripture?
It is plain that και θεος ην is a separate sentence. Ο λογος ουτος means a word another as well which leads to John 1:14. The other word itself a missing prophecy from the LXX. If you want to go back to the Early Church Fathers, and try to point out their is supposed to be only one word of God, you can try.
 

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"Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things."
Jesus was speaking from the perspective of His humanity and not His deity. As God He was ... GOD!
 

OZOS

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Jesus was speaking from the perspective of His humanity and not His deity. As God He was ... GOD!
Of course He was speaking from His humanity. Jesus was born with a brain, eyes, ears, etc., the same as every other human. What do you think identifies a person from another person? The body of Jesus was prepared for Him. In His body, He was taught by the Father and grew in wisdom. He is God in the flesh. His identity or nature never changed, but He chose to divest Himself from knowledge and understanding as He was taught by the Father and grew in wisdom.

Don't want to be mean to you, because I like you, but you need to abandon your preconceived ideas about this, the very same ideas I held for a very long time, because of corrupted orthodox teaching. I would be happy to walk you through this.

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."
 

Hilltrot

Well-known member
Yes, it was a straw man. No one here is "trying to weasel out of Jesus' humanity and death in order to prove that Jesus is the one true God."

Obfuscation.

@Hilltrot Please define "died."

If that means simply copying and pasting the definition provided by a dictionary, then so be it. If it means providing a definition of your own choosing, so be it. If it means providing a definition taken from the Bible, so be it.

So far, you have yet to provide the definition you use for "died." Please tell us so that we can stop talking past each other.
One has an explanation of death in John 11. Another is in Luke 20:34-38.
 

Hilltrot

Well-known member
I Timothy 6:16 says that Christ alone has immortality. Can God be separated from God? Maybe this is just a difference of semantics, but if Christ is dead, how does He defeat death? That's why He could say He has the keys to death, hell and the grave. He triumphed over it because He defeated it. It didn't defeat Him. Was He separated from the Father? Yes. But would you say He didn't have life in Himself?
Timothy 6:16 refers to God, unless you think no one saw Jesus.
 
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