"Son of Man"

Right Divider

Body part
Different than the truth. The Jews were looking for a earthly Son of Man who would restore their Kingdom. Not a "Son of Man" who would be lifted up tp heaven.
That is just about 100% wrong.

They were correctly expecting the restoration of the kingdom. That is why they asked Christ about it after FOURTY DAYS of instruction regarding the kingdom:
Act 1:3 KJV To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Act 1:6 KJV When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Note that the Lord did NOT correct their understanding, but simply spoke about its TIMING.
Act 1:7 KJV And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Also take into account other revelations from God, like this one:
Luk 1:30-33 KJV And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. (31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
That refers to the kingdom of Israel (i.e., the house of Jacob) on the earth. They were right to expect the restoration of the kingdom of Israel with Christ as King. The "throne of his father David" is the throne of the king of Israel.

The term "the Son of Man" refers to dominion ON and OVER THE EARTH. Again, that is why the term NEVER appears even a SINGLE time in Paul's epistles. If you don't understand why, then you have a lot to learn.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
It's been known for quite some time that this is a logical inconsistency.

The only inconsistency arises when you define words the wrong way.

No where in the Bible does it say that God died.

Define "died."

One has to force the belief "Jesus is God" onto the Bible

False.

and then replace the word Jesus with God when it suits one's whims.

Because you say so?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
"’Tis myst’ry all: th’ Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more."

It's been known for quite some time that this is a logical inconsistency.

No where in the Bible does it say that God died. One has to force the belief "Jesus is God" onto the Bible and then replace the word Jesus with God when it suits one's whims.
Utter nonsense. The Bible is filled with evidence that Jesus is God, that He (God) died on the cross, for our sins, including YOURS, which calls Jesus a liar when He said He is God.

You have no clue what death is, just as those before you who nailed God to the cross.
 

Hilltrot

Well-known member
Define a human.
Please stop being a moron, thanks.
I think you're asking too much of him.
Define "died."
One of the problems is that you'all haven't realized that by going so far out of your way to defend the trinity, you'all have actually left orthodox Christianity behind.

Two key things explicitly said about Jesus are that

1. He is human.
2. He died.

Now you'all are trying to weasel out of Jesus' humanity and death in order to prove that Jesus is the one true God? Usually trinitarians will affirm Jesus' death and humanity without equivocation. Afterwards they will do their best to show that Jesus was the one true God despite being human and despite having died.

At this point, you'all are going out on a limb.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
One of the problems is that you'all haven't realized that by going so far out of your way to defend the trinity, you'all have actually left orthodox Christianity behind.

Because you say so?

Two key things explicitly said about Jesus are that

1. He is human.

We agree that Jesus did, in fact, become human, and is, to this very day, human.

2. He died.

We agree that Jesus, did, in fact, die. And to go further, we agree that He rose from the dead on the third day, and then about 40 days later, returned to heaven to sit next to His Father.

However, you still have yet to define what you, Hilltrot, mean by "died," because it clearly means something different than what we trinitarians mean, and that seems to be affecting your ability to see that He is, in fact, God.

Now you'all are trying to weasel out of Jesus' humanity and death in order to prove that Jesus is the one true God?

Straw man.

Usually trinitarians will affirm Jesus' death and humanity without equivocation.

Supra.

Afterwards they will do their best to show that Jesus was the one true God despite being human and despite having died.

Why do you assume that being human and dying means that Jesus cannot be God?

At this point, you'all are going out on a limb.

Says the one who won't define terms.

Please, define "died."
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Nope - not straw man.

If you define death and/or human as anything other than what they would normally mean, you are equivocating. You are playing semantics.
I define death and human the same way the Bible defines them, and in both cases, YOU have no clue what they mean. But, I will give you another opportunity to read the Bible and find out what they mean. Perhaps then you will no longer be a moron, and will come to understand why Jesus is God who came in the flesh and died on a cross for our sins, and was raised from the dead. (Hint: What was raised? Where was Jesus after He died and before He was raised?)
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
"’Tis myst’ry all: th’ Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more."

It's been known for quite some time that this is a logical inconsistency.

No where in the Bible does it say that God died. One has to force the belief "Jesus is God" onto the Bible and then replace the word Jesus with God when it suits one's whims.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 2:8-9

{Sorry about the formatting....it doesn't work like it used to for me}

You might think it a logical inconsistency, but it is declared in scripture that Christ - also called Immanuel ("God with us") - had all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Natural thinking says that if God can be "localized" then he is minimized and reduced to something less than what "contains" Him (i.e. mankind or humanity). But Paul tells the Philippians this :

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:5-11


First, it makes no sense to talk about taking the "form" of a servant if you don't look at what "form" He had previously. Verse 6 clearly said Christ was in the form of God. He took upon himself the form of a servant and made in the likeness of men. His humanity was something that He took upon Himself in such a way that - while He was still in the form of God - He became identified completely with humanity. This is the same whose essence is said to be "The Word" and which is directly identified as God (John 1:1). John says the Word was both WITH God and WAS God. That is not something that can be handled by mere logic of man. And when Christ was on earth, He said something that was either utter blasphemy or made Himself God :

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58

This is the very same thing God told Moses to tell Pharaoh when he would ask Moses who sent him.

And Jesus even claimed to be equal with God.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

Looking at Philippians 2 again, it's clear that we have someone who was (and is) equal with God. Just that statement alone must mean that Christ is not merely a man. And if equal with God the Father, does that mean He was maybe an angel? Hebrews 1 removes that possibility :

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:4

And Hebrews 2 echoes the Psalmist (in Psalm 8) saying :

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 2:9

So we certainly see the humanity of Christ emphasized here, but that can never take away from His divinity since John 1 and Hebrews 1 both clearly state that it was by Him that all things were made.

Now...as to the question - did God die? I don't see it that way since I see Christ's humanity as the matter of His voluntary humiliation unto death. God can't die. But taking on the form of a man, Christ can and did) taste death for every man. But at the same time, Christ died so that He could overcome death. He didn't die like a man dies and is chained by it. He died in that He entered INTO it to break the power of it. The only victor over it!
 

OZOS

Well-known member
God can't die.
He can and He did. Don't make the same mistake of the reformers who deny that God was in Christ when the world was being reconciled. A correct and Biblical understanding of what "death" means will clear up all confusion. Death is separation. Adam died the day he ate. He was separated from the life of God. Jesus was separated from His earthly body. Those who reject Jesus, suffer eternal death (separation from God). When the body is dead it is separated from the soul/spirit, but the person does not cease to exist or lose awareness. God tasted death for every man. God died on the cross (separation from the body).
 
Last edited:

Right Divider

Body part
I have no clue why the trinity doctrine has any meaning.
That's too bad for you.
It is a doctrine of confusion, and unnecessary.
That is incorrect. It is the most accurate understanding of the nature of God that we have in the Bible.
Why should God be an example as a human being?
Read the Bible. Maybe you can find out.
The action would be irreleveant.
Only to you.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
I have no clue why the trinity doctrine has any meaning. It is a doctrine of confusion, and unnecessary. Why should God be an example as a human being? The action would be irreleveant.
Jesus, who is God in the flesh, is the only man who has the life to give to redeem man. It's not complicated at all, except for those who refuse to believe who Jesus is and what He has done.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
He can and He did. Don't make the same mistake of the reformers who deny that God was in Christ when the world was being reconciled. A correct and Biblical understanding of what "death" means will clear up all confusion. Death is separation. Adam died the day he ate. He was separated from the life of God. Jesus was separated from His earthly body. Those who reject Jesus suffer eternal death (separation from God). When the body is dead it is separated from the soul/spirit, but the person does not cease to exist or lose awareness. God tasted death for every man. God died on the cross (separation from the body).
I Timothy 6:16 says that Christ alone has immortality. Can God be separated from God? Maybe this is just a difference of semantics, but if Christ is dead, how does He defeat death? That's why He could say He has the keys to death, hell and the grave. He triumphed over it because He defeated it. It didn't defeat Him. Was He separated from the Father? Yes. But would you say He didn't have life in Himself?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
I Timothy 6:16 says that Christ alone has immortality. Can God be separated from God? Maybe this is just a difference of semantics, but if Christ is dead, how does He defeat death? That's why He could say He has the keys to death, hell and the grave. He triumphed over it because He defeated it. It didn't defeat Him. Was He separated from the Father? Yes. But would you say He didn't have life in Himself?
Not sure I'm following you. The person of Jesus is God in the flesh. His person is God, in a "body prepared for Him". He does not have two minds, natures, or wills. We have to understand what it means for Jesus to not grasp equality with God, by us being able to grasp what His humanity entails. Jesus divested Himself (becoming a man) of the knowledge of His divinity. You and I are born without access to things of God, because they are spiritually discerned. Until we are made alive, all we can do is understand the things of the world through what we observe. Once we receive the Spirit of God (made alive) then we have full access to the things of God. Jesus was born alive. He had full access to the things of God from birth, and though He is God, He chose not to have full comprehension, but to submit to the Father. He grew in His understanding through full access spiritually. In other words, He took on flesh and blood as a man, so that He could obey the Father perfectly.

Jesus defeated death by raising His body from the dead. He never ceased to be God. He was never separated from who He is, but in His flesh (mind, will, emotions) he tasted (experienced) separation as a man, which speaks clearly of having divested Himself from full comprehension.
 

Omniskeptical

Active member
Temp Banned
Jesus, who is God in the flesh, is the only man who has the life to give to redeem man. It's not complicated at all, except for those who refuse to believe who Jesus is and what He has done.
Sorry but the New Testament says he redeemed Israel.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Sorry but the New Testament says he redeemed Israel.
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace"

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
 

Omniskeptical

Active member
Temp Banned
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace"

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
And the gentiles who were converts were grafted into Israel. You have all are damned; Jesus redeeming the damned to hell. I won't buy your boloney.
 

Omniskeptical

Active member
Temp Banned
That's too bad for you.
No, it isn't, but you pretend all you want.
That is incorrect. It is the most accurate understanding of the nature of God that we have in the Bible.
It was a bunch of conjectures given by gnostics, Origen, and Augustine.
Read the Bible. Maybe you can find out.
God didn't become human or pre-human. Maybe you should look up Hermes and Zeus in Acts.
Only to you.
It never happened, so GOD hasn't requested we believe in an abomination or a sin offering as a Passover. The death was necessary for the resurrection the which started the march of the Israelite faiths. It didn't redeem mankind, but rather shamed it into doing better things, just like Job shamed the early Hebrews.
 
Top