Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

[Granite]

i agree completely, but what's the alternative ? i stated, btw, also that trained elders, ushers or known certified members - not necessarily police at every church

i just know personally, i have no problem feeling protected from a mad man on a rampage - it doesn't have to be a military/police presence, just low key, friendly, precautionary observation - somebody needs to be paying attention in churches, as a job -

i have attended a Wednesday Bible study and several men are prepared, some cops. hopefully never necessary at any place of worship, but this IS the world we live in -

PS, Granite - i accidentily gave you a neg rep, i owe you some pos's

Maybe the alternative should start with not settling for the cruel, grotesque, twisted, violent, heartsick, vigilante-cowboy-macho-armchair-Rambo awash-with-guns culture we've pretty much settled for. We can start there. This isn't good enough. What we're doing doesn't work. It hasn't for a while. Throwing more guns at our problem with guns solves nothing. Achieves nothing. Fixes nothing.

I for one am sick to death of people pouncing on the latest massacre--because we have so many they just blend together at this rate--and using it as an excuse to bang the drum for more damn guns. I'm sick and fed up. Sometimes I feel like being an American makes me a member of a death cult by default.

If we want to fix this we need to start demanding better than just one more stupid gun into the mix.

 

[Stripe]

Or just old-fashioned hatred. He appears to have been a fan of both Rhodesia and apartheid--not a good sign.

Hatred.

The dude's a murderer. He should be executed for that. There should be no government-backed penalty for "hatred."

What kind of world do you actually want to live in where cops in a church is "common"?

One where people with guns is normal, which would have seen only one or two people killed in this scenario. Preferably one. :up:

The Charleston paper summed up America's relationship with guns perfectly.

For those who can't zoom in, it's an ad for GUN STORE, stuck to the OUTSIDE of the paper AFTER it was printed.

Awesome. :thumb:

Nothing like capitalizing on current affairs for a powerful marketing campaign. :up:

The only solution you seem to be able to come up with so far is "guns." Sorry, that's just part of the problem.

Rocks, remember?

 

[Alate_One]

i agree completely, but what's the alternative ?

Restricting the availability of guns?

i just know personally, i have no problem feeling protected from a mad man on a rampage - it doesn't have to be a military/police presence, just low key, friendly, precautionary observation - somebody needs to be paying attention in churches, as a job -

Another person with a gun is another person that might have some kind of issue to make them accidentally or purposefully use the gun.

i have attended a Wednesday Bible study and several men are prepared, some cops. hopefully never necessary at any place of worship, but this IS the world we live in -

You assume that someone that has a gun on them, when taken completely by surprise will be able to shoot and kill the offender (and not hit anyone else) before the offender can shoot many people.

I find gun advocates think reality is like a movie. They can be the action hero that stops the bad guy before anything happens. Reality is a lot messier. Even police officers that are trained and prepared for a fight often get shot or fail to bring down the assailant. (On average they hit what they're shooting at about 30% of the time.)

And the average joe with a gun who is unprepared is going to do better? And you still really think just having a gun on you makes you safer? :doh:

 

[patrick jane]

i think in this age and reality, the cat is out of the bag with guns. the criminals and crazies and extremists will have and use guns on innocent folks anywhere at anytime. all we can do is match them or pray, duck and run -

 

[Granite]

i think in this age and reality, the cat is out of the bag with guns. the criminals and crazies and extremists will have and use guns on innocent folks anywhere at anytime. all we can do is match them or pray, duck and run -

This isn't a video game.

 

[The Barbarian]

All murders are hate crimes;

The worst of them are not. Many times, the person is just in the way of what another person wants. That's a cold, calculating sort of murder, by someone who is incapable of emotions like love or hate.

That's what a hit man is. Nothing personal.

 

[The Barbarian]

Guns are a plague on society. The worst of it is the fact that so often what would have been a scuffle involving lost teeth or a black eye, turns out to be a homicide because someone had a gun at hand.

If you've ever pulled ER duty, the fallout from domestic disturbances often ends with a team trying to save a life, and a second person catatonic with shock because they lost their temper and pulled a trigger. I can't tell you the horror the shooter expresses when they realize what they've done.

But realistically, the attack by this racist would have likely not happened, if he knew that a significant number of people in the meeting were carrying weapons. He was counting on unarmed people.

And Constitutionally, that right is there and non-negotiable, unless you want to get an amendment passed.

The problem isn't as simple as the extremists on both sides would like it to be.

 

[patrick jane]

This isn't a video game.

i don't play them - not since about 1993 - can you say the same ? -

you have no clue of the real world - hush

 

[aikido7]

We need to validate and expand the resources for mental illness. President Reagan's intentions were good when he mandated patients to be released to our streets, but I think now we will hopefully begin to see his actions as ultimately unwise.

I am just astonished at these shooters who are later found to be mentally ill. All the signs were there, doctors told relatives that they were harboring delusional thoughts, they were having fantasies of doing harm, etc. yet they were again left out on their own.

For those who like to read and have the time, here is a document telling one woman's story. The first few paragraphs:

" Anna did not simply decide one
day that people were made of paper.
She came to the conclusion slowly
and reluctantly, several
months after she first noticed
that the consistency
of everything around her
had subtly changed.

Books and chairs and
buildings were no longer
solid but composed of
tiny, buzzing particles.
She thought if she blew
on a lamppost it should
disperse into air..."

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/neuwrite/pubs/avivHarpers.pdf

 

[Granite]

i don't play them - not since about 1993 - can you say the same ? -

you have no clue of the real world - hush

You're a silly little putz, I'll give you that.:yawn:

 

[patrick jane]

Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
i think in this age and reality, the cat is out of the bag with guns. the criminals and crazies and extremists will have and use guns on innocent folks anywhere at anytime. all we can do is match them or pray, duck and run -


gran -
This isn't a video game.

This isn't a video game.

thanks - cuz that's what i implied ?

 

[Granite]

Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
i think in this age and reality, the cat is out of the bag with guns. the criminals and crazies and extremists will have and use guns on innocent folks anywhere at anytime. all we can do is match them or pray, duck and run -


gran -
This isn't a video game.






thanks - cuz that's what i implied ?

You seem to be taking it less than seriously. Duck and run, blah-blah-blah. Silly and stupid, frankly. Shoot 'em up.

Part of the problem.

 

[Alate_One]

Why prosecute this as a hate crime rather than just a murder? Political motivation. This is by definition a terrorist act.

ter·ror·ism ˈterəˌrizəm/ noun the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

 

[Granite]

Why prosecute this as a hate crime rather than just a murder? Political motivation. This is by definition a terrorist act.

ter·ror·ism ˈterəˌrizəm/ noun the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Don't forget the nutcase who just attacked the Dallas PD. Unless he wasn't a domestic terrorist, either, and just happened to be another unhinged white dude with a grudge against authority.

 

[aikido7]

Like the example I previously posted about the mentally ill woman who began to see that people were made of paper, I am betting that the guy shot people in the church because he became convinced they represented something else than individual human beings.

***A young man killed his sleeping father with a hammer. He was convinced that his father was somehow sending signals out into the world to cause wars.

***A man butchered a woman with a knife. He became convinced he was "Born Again" and needed to become a cell again and go back into the Fallopian tubes to begin his new spiritual journey.

***My stepdaughter jumped off a state ferry into freezing waters. Thanks to God that a tugboat was close by and she was pulled from certain death. She jumped because she was convinced the rock group Pearl Jam was also on the ferry and was plotting to kill her.

To these folks, their actions actually seem to make sense to them on some level.

I am also reminded of

***the Christian woman who drowned her three children in the bathtub. They were actually demons, she thought.

 

[Alate_One]

Don't forget the nutcase who just attacked the Dallas PD. Unless he wasn't a domestic terrorist, either, and just happened to be another unhinged white dude with a grudge against authority.

Harder to figure out that guy's motivation, but definitely possible. Domestic anti-government/authority terrorism by (mostly) white males is a problem in this country. It's just easier to call people "crazy" than admit there's a problem.

That's not to say there aren't people that kill because they actually are crazy, it's just we seem to want to call every mass shooting/bombing etc. a result of "crazy" - as long as it's white people.

This guy sat in the congregation for an hour and THEN shot them. That's a fair bit of premeditation if you ask me.

 

[Granite]

Harder to figure out that guy's motivation, but definitely possible. Domestic anti-government/authority terrorism by (mostly) white males is a problem in this country. It's just easier to call people "crazy" than admit there's a problem.

Agreed--dismissing them as cranks sidesteps the issue of folks often having legitimate beefs with authority, although we both know what the coverage would be like if the perp in this case weren't white.

This guy sat in the congregation for an hour and THEN shot them. That's a fair bit of premeditation if you ask me.

Absolutely. The kind of detail that makes a tragedy like this even more unsettling.

 

[Tinark]

How much do you want to bet that Nazaroo and his ilk will soon claim this as a false flag government conspiracy to ignite a race war and confiscate our guns?

 

[Stripe]

Restricting the availability of guns?

The only sensible means by which this case might have been avoided, and you want more stringent legislation against it.

Are you committing a hate crime?

Another person with a gun is another person that might have some kind of issue to make them accidentally or purposefully use the gun.

Like to stop a murderer?

You assume that someone that has a gun on them, when taken completely by surprise will be able to shoot and kill the offender (and not hit anyone else) before the offender can shoot many people.

Yip. :up:

That is what training is for. And if guns were commonplace, it would have been 20 against 1. I'll take those odds over the reality your ideals have created.

I find gun advocates think reality is like a movie.

Nope. The bad guy dies at the start of our "movie." :up:

They can be the action hero that stops the bad guy before anything happens. Reality is a lot messier. Even police officers that are trained and prepared for a fight often get shot or fail to bring down the assailant. (On average they hit what they're shooting at about 30% of the time.)

Therefore we should not have the option of defending ourselves. :dizzy:

Your logic is terrifying.

And the average joe with a gun who is unprepared is going to do better? And you still really think just having a gun on you makes you safer? :doh:

Training. You forget that part. Try again. :up:

We need to validate and expand the resources for mental illness.

The best way to do that is to practice justice. People go crazy because they live in an unjust world.

Like the example I previously posted about the mentally ill woman who began to see that people were made of paper, I am betting that the guy shot people in the church because he became convinced they represented something else than individual human beings***A young man killed his sleeping father with a hammer. He was convinced that his father was somehow sending signals out into the world to cause wars.***A man butchered a woman with a knife. He became convinced he was "Born Again" and needed to become a cell again and go back into the Fallopian tubes to begin his new spiritual journey.***My stepdaughter jumped off a state ferry into freezing waters. Thanks to God that a tugboat was close by and she was pulled from certain death. She jumped because she was convinced the rock group Pearl Jam was also on the ferry and was plotting to kill her.To these folks, their actions actually seem to make sense to them on some level.I am also reminded of ***the Christian woman who drowned her three children in the bathtub. They were actually demons, she thought.

This is why we have the death penalty. :up:

 

[Tinark]

Used to have 2 cops that were members of a church I belonged to, and they were always packing their service weapons.

Given where the church was, it was always a bit reassuring when they were present.

All those AZ gun wielders at the 2011 Tucson shooting didn't prevent 18 people from getting shot and 6 getting killed. The guy was tackled to the ground, not shot, before he was stopped.

Can you imagine a bunch of people trying to shoot at a maniac shooter running through a crowd? A bunch of stray bullets whizzing by in every direction. Yes, very reassuring.