School is open; Topic Paul

[Stuu]

Saul had some kind of personal vision. If the vision was true- great! But if it was false- just a hallucination- then Christianity as we know it is based on one man's delusion? That couldn't possibly be the case. Therefore Saul / Paul had a true vision. Logic- see?

Yes, because it must be true it is true.

But don't forget christianity is also based on the attempts by anonymous writers to fulfill the prophecies of the 'Old Testament', in documents known as the synoptic gospels. In those we read of miracles performed by Jesus (before he was dead) but which are not mentioned by Saul at all. Funny that.

Stuart

 

[beameup]

Yes, because it must be true it is true.

But don't forget christianity is also based on the attempts by anonymous writers to fulfill the prophecies of the 'Old Testament', in documents known as the synoptic gospels. In those we read of miracles performed by Jesus (before he was dead) but which are not mentioned by Saul at all. Funny that.

Stuart

Yes "funny that".
The same "signs and wonders" (ie: miracles) done by Jesus were done by the Apostles, including Paul.
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. - Romans 15:9

Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. - Acts 14:3

 

[God's Truth]

Paul the Apostle, the cornerstone of Christianity, told by Jesus himself to go preach his ministry worldwide.Paul who once called Saul of Tarsus,avid persercutor of early Christian church. Now when and where his name change from Saul to Paul is so subtle that it is hardy notice.Ok, we have Saul of Tarsus on his merry way to Damasus to imprison and eventually kill as many early Christians as he can find,men and women.On his way he has a epiphany,he meets Jesus (who calls him Saul)and told to go to town and be told to spread Jesus's words near and far. Now as far as I know God only change two peoples' name in the Bible and that was Abram and Jacob.

But I am getting ahead of myself let's take this road trip to Damasus.


Acts 9:3-9


3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Now the second retelling by Saul

Acts 22:9-10

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.




Now in Acts 9:7 The people who were with Saul heard a voice but saw no man

Now in Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.


Now which one is it Saul, the people hear a sound but saw no light or the people saw the light but heard no sound? And why was Saul the only one that was blinded if everybody saw the light? Its gets better.

Now in Acts 26:13-14

13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Now it seems everyone experienced the same thing. "We were all fallen" was never recounted before. Three 3 different version from a man that changes his own name to fit his agenda. Where are the witnesses to this 180-degree makeover? Looks like the NT could as least named one 1 witness to this Saul/Paul transformation. The holy spirit did not call him Paul? So why are you? Because it is in your Bible and that make's it gospel !
Once Saul was on his way again as a convert was he address as Paul. No Godly intervention, no fanfare nothing. I am no Theologian but if I find discrepancies like this and I do not read the Bible on a daily or weekly bases then I know someone else has pointed this out. And I looked in several different Bibles and found the older the manuscript the bigger the disparity. Or maybe this is just a minor technicality, nothing to worry about Saul/Paul is still the man?

I enjoy talking about Paul. This is a good topic.

Paul was the only one blinded because God was going to later open his eyes literally and spiritually.

As for some hearing the voice and then some not, well that is common when there are different types of people around, as seen in John 12:29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

And Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”


If you want knowledge from God then one must do what Jesus says to do to get that knowledge; otherwise, you sound like a pedantic person straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

 

[Bee1]

Do they conflict, or are you reading something into it that is not there?
Or perhaps you are being way too rigid with the language and meanings of words used in your trollish attempts to discredit scripture.
Hearing the noise doesn't automatically mean you hear the words.
Use your noggin for some common sense at times, and you might be able to solve some puzzles for yourself.

The verses are printed above straight out the KJV. Are you telling me all three accounts are the same? Simple question may I have a yes or no answer and be done with it.

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[Bee1]

Translation: You're an outed troll, not here to learn, edify others, but to "prove" that you are right. No, troll, do not confuse your lack of reading comprehension skills, and lack of spiritual discernment, for any alleged "conflicting accounts in Acts," or in the bible. The bible is correct. You are wrong. It corrects you, not vice verse.

I am here to learn not to teach. I see or hear something the conflicts what mainstream Christians and Roman Catholics say is right and supposedly live by but when press for an answer now I am being criticized for asking. Why, when there is an obvious flaw in Christian reasoning that I and many others bring to the fore front there is never an answer. I ask about verses in Acts take conflict, why aren't you pointing out my error in understand
what said.
I was brought up in a Protestant and church till I was old enough to say I am not going anymore. I saw men shout, jump for joy, speak in tongue then when church over and everyone ate dinner ready to relax the rest of the day, the same men go out whoring. I know, they took me with them to make it look innocent to the wives that are left at home. So excuse me if my tone is a little belligerent. I have been on this forum for about maybe 6 months and I have yet to get a straight forward answer to many question on various subject concerning the Bible. I believe in a God so I also believe in the devil to keep it simple. When I read something in the Bible that says don't do this but Christians are doing it then something is wrong.God says do not take or add anything to this book. Have "we" obeyed that 1 simple law? Jews are God's chosen people but the same Jews killed Jesus. God says he is a jealous God put nobody before him but we have Saint Paul , Saint Michael, Mary mother of Jesus and others that Christians bow down to and praise. Simple things like that no ones seems to notice or care. There is a verse somewhere that says it is better to be a sinner and not know God then to know God and sin.

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[Bee1]

Saul had some kind of personal vision. If the vision was true- great! But if it was false- just a hallucination- then Christianity as we know it is based on one man's delusion? That couldn't possibly be the case. Therefore Saul / Paul had a true vision. Logic- see?

Ohh..I get it.

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[Tambora]

The verses are printed above straight out the KJV.

Yep.

Are you telling me all three accounts are the same?

Unless you think Paul was struck blind 3 different times by the risen Lord Jesus Christ on three different trips on the road to Damascus.

Simple question may I have a yes or no answer and be done with it.

I think your goose is already about done on this issue.

 

[Bee1]

Yes, because it must be true it is true.

But don't forget christianity is also based on the attempts by anonymous writers to fulfill the prophecies of the 'Old Testament', in documents known as the synoptic gospels. In those we read of miracles performed by Jesus (before he was dead) but which are not mentioned by Saul at all. Funny that.

Stuart

Saul never met Jesus to my understanding, and if he had Jesus probably be dead a lot sooner. Saul/Paul did not have this vision till after Jesus death.

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[Bee1]

I enjoy talking about Paul. This is a good topic.

Paul was the only one blinded because God was going to later open his eyes literally and spiritually.

As for some hearing the voice and then some not, well that is common when there are different types of people around, as seen in John 12:29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

And Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”


If you want knowledge from God then one must do what Jesus says to do to get that knowledge; otherwise, you sound like a pedantic person straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

This is the best answer that I have received from someone with a differing opinion than mine. Thank you. Very well said.

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[Bee1]

Yep.

Unless you think Paul was struck blind 3 different times by the risen Lord Jesus Christ on three different trips on the road to Damascus.

I think your goose is already about done on this issue.

If you read Acts and think Saul/Paul retelling of that magnificent event of seeing Jesus (who said he will not return until the Rapture) on the road to Damasus is the same....than I will see YOU in hell.

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[Tambora]

If you read Acts and think Saul/Paul retelling of that magnificent event of seeing Jesus (who said he will not return until the Rapture) on the road to Damasus is the same....than I will see YOU in hell.

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So you do think it was 3 different events, 3 different times of which Paul was blinded on the road Damascus?
:rotfl:

 

[Danoh]

Wow! Now that is dangerous speech!

Saul's name was not changed to Paul by virtue of becoming a Roman. The question for you might be which name he had first.

:chuckle:

No knucklehead, I never said his name was changed, lol.

Sheesh are you ever clueless.

Saul is his name as pronounced in Hebrew.

Paul, or Paulus, was how it was pronounced in Roman.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[Jacob]

:chuckle:

No knucklehead, I never said his name was changed, lol.

Sheesh are you ever clueless.

Saul is his name as pronounced in Hebrew.

Paul, or Paulus, was how it was pronounced in Roman.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

He is a Hebrew, an Israelite, a Benjaminite, a Jew, a Pharisee, an Apostle, and a Roman Citizen.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul the Apostle, the cornerstone of Christianity, told by Jesus himself to go preach his ministry worldwide.Paul who once called Saul of Tarsus,avid persercutor of early Christian church. Now when and where his name change from Saul to Paul is so subtle that it is hardy notice.Ok, we have Saul of Tarsus on his merry way to Damasus to imprison and eventually kill as many early Christians as he can find,men and women.On his way he has a epiphany,he meets Jesus (who calls him Saul)and told to go to town and be told to spread Jesus's words near and far. Now as far as I know God only change two peoples' name in the Bible and that was Abram and Jacob.

This MYTH, the "changing" of the name of Saul to Paul, is repeated so many times. But it's just not true.

Acts 13:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(13:9) Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
​

NOWHERE.... I repeat, NOWHERE does the Bible say that his name was CHANGED.

Here is another time that God changed someones name that you missed:

Gen 17:15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(17:15) ¶ And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be].
​

 

[God's Truth]

If you read Acts and think Saul/Paul retelling of that magnificent event of seeing Jesus (who said he will not return until the Rapture) on the road to Damasus is the same....than I will see YOU in hell.

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Jesus can still speak to people personally.

 

[freelight]

Paul's claim to apostleship.........

Paul's claim to apostleship.........

Spoiler

Paul the Apostle, the cornerstone of Christianity, told by Jesus himself to go preach his ministry worldwide.Paul who once called Saul of Tarsus,avid persercutor of early Christian church. Now when and where his name change from Saul to Paul is so subtle that it is hardy notice.Ok, we have Saul of Tarsus on his merry way to Damasus to imprison and eventually kill as many early Christians as he can find,men and women.On his way he has a epiphany,he meets Jesus (who calls him Saul)and told to go to town and be told to spread Jesus's words near and far. Now as far as I know God only change two peoples' name in the Bible and that was Abram and Jacob.

But I am getting ahead of myself let's take this road trip to Damasus.


Acts 9:3-9


3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Now the second retelling by Saul

Acts 22:9-10

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.




Now in Acts 9:7 The people who were with Saul heard a voice but saw no man

Now in Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.


Now which one is it Saul, the people hear a sound but saw no light or the people saw the light but heard no sound? And why was Saul the only one that was blinded if everybody saw the light? Its gets better.

Now in Acts 26:13-14

13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Now it seems everyone experienced the same thing. "We were all fallen" was never recounted before. Three 3 different version from a man that changes his own name to fit his agenda. Where are the witnesses to this 180-degree makeover? Looks like the NT could as least named one 1 witness to this Saul/Paul transformation. The holy spirit did not call him Paul? So why are you? Because it is in your Bible and that make's it gospel !
Once Saul was on his way again as a convert was he address as Paul. No Godly intervention, no fanfare nothing. I am no Theologian but if I find discrepancies like this and I do not read the Bible on a daily or weekly bases then I know someone else has pointed this out. And I looked in several different Bibles and found the older the manuscript the bigger the disparity. Or maybe this is just a minor technicality, nothing to worry about Saul/Paul is still the man?

Spoiler

Hi Bee 1 and all following,

It might be more interesting to note the contradictory accounts within the 3 'versions' than any variance on what 'name' the recipient of the 'vision' is called or goes by, since one person could have any number of names, so this observation may be minor, if at all significant depending on what factors your considering in the over-all equation. However if you were to present the 3 accounts into an actual courtroom, and examine any 'witnesses' to the events as well, it may not go well for the case of authenticity as a whole, regarding differences in some details within the 'story'. Therefore there could be literary devices, and fictional embellishments in those narratives by the writer of Acts who writes in favor of Paul's ministry and modifies the script to reconcile Paul more with the Jerusalem Community who he is often at odds with due his anti-torah rhetoric and dismissal of traditional-orthodox Judaism, which he replaces with "his own gospel".

There is another glarring contradiction in Paul's own testimony here - in the event of his 'vision' of Jesus in Acts 22:6-15, he claims he is directed to go into Damascus and THERE be told all he must do regarding his ministry, and then meets Ananias in Damascus who heals him and then declares over him his mission and calling to the Gentiles.

Then later in Acts 26:13-18 he gives the vision account where it is THERE at that time of the vision (while on the road to Damascus) that Jesus appears as a 'light' and a 'voice'...tells him about his ministry, revealing his calling and mission to the Gentiles. Different accounts, places and persons who give Paul his mission instructions.

Conversion of Paul the Apostle

We also note there are no other witness accounts of this event apart from the writer of Acts and Paul's own confession, neither is this event hilighted in any other apostles account or esteemed by them as a 'sign' or 'seal' of his assumed 'apostleship'. He still is trying to approve himself to the Jerusalem community, the original apostles of Jesus, the pillars, but due to many Jews wanting to kill him, he can no longer stay in Jerusalem, so carries out his ministry to Gentiles. We also note that its indicated that Peter is the first apostle to the Gentiles, and gave the first sermon to them whereby they received the Holy Spirit, - there is no confirmation or validation from the pillars that Paul was accepted into their 'circle' as an 'apostle' or that Jesus somehow appeared to him giving him a ministry to the Gentiles. Paul even boasts about receiving his 'calling' not from flesh and blood, and got his teaching from no man or passed down tradition from the original apostles, but by personal revelation and 'scripture' (his esoteric/allegorical interpretations thereof).

Why are the three accounts of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus different?