Satan, Inc (TOL's heretic's list)

Lon

Well-known member
Hi Lon,
Sorry but a great deal of your post was incoherent.
I reread it and it was clear. I have one 'thank you' so it was clear to another besides myself as well. I think a ninth grade education might be culprit here.

You posted quotes from both me and AMR and while it seems most or all of your responses were to me, it's hard to be sure.
I think you are confused. You were talking to AMR. I only quoted you.
A couple of your comments are worth a response anyway.
So not all of it confused you?


I have no idea what you're talking about--if the above was to me, your disconnect from coherence is startling.
:doh: THIS was "worth responding to???" Besides, you already said you were confused. I already got that point.

I hold Paul in higher esteem than any of the other apostles. Using passages as arrows to shoot at someone else is method--poor method, but method all the same. Building the complex of multiple points necessary to build epistemological warrant for a belief is methodology. If you took the time to learn what methodology I use you wouldn't make such off the wall statements.
I was talking about the reason why we Christians are to reject heresy and have nothing to do with heretics. Universalism does harm and damage to the gospel message and disdains the saving work of Jesus Christ. There are currently 2 other Universalists posting with you these last few pages. When I said you disdained Paul, it was because you are speaking against his instruction to have nothing to do with heretics and heresies.


This comment is amazing in light of the fact that even a casual reading of the gospels show that AMR's position--no new ground is to be had in theology, we are to adhere to tradition--is one of the most common postures adopted by the Jewish religious leaders against the upstart Jesus. They refused to judge Him according to honest criteria for truth, but instead judged Him by their own traditions as though these were truth itself as per Mat 15:1-6.
Yet He told His disciples to do what they said, not what they did. The Pharisees get scapegoated a lot for crimes, especially by cultists who have no idea why they were called whitewashed tombs. Jesus also said "we worship what we know, you worship what you don't know. John 4:20 Salvation belongs to the Jews." John 4:22
Tradition, in this case, has given us creeds and a good many of them, that tell us what is scripturally sound and what is not. Generally, if you are against the majority of Christians, it is a warning sign that you are traveling off toward private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20-21 Having a 9th grade education, I'd recommend you stick with the majority. It will not serve you well if you go off alone. A ninth grade education is too small for doctrinal seas.
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
A ninth grade education is too small for doctrinal seas.

Jesus was mostly concerned of uneducated, poor and needy.

Watch out out for your proud heart of high education and high IQ.

They are also good at deceiving people.

Take a look at political world: They are all highly educated with super high IQ.

Jesus criticized Pharisees and Scribes harshily.

Loving and kind heart don't need high educating or high IQ. And that's what Jesus' teachings are all about. God and Jesus are looking into our heat, dear. Proud heart is enemy of God and Jesus and is anti-Christ.


Christianity is all about humbleness.

Most leaders of their own doctrines are missing the mark of core of Jesus' loving spirit.

Watch out following highly educated Christian leaders.


Jesus picked uneducated ones as leaders of His ministry.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Jesus was mostly concerned of uneducated, poor and needy.

Watch out out for your proud heart of high education and high IQ.

They are also good at deceiving people.

Take a look at political world: They are all highly educated with super high IQ.

Jesus criticized Pharisees and Scribes harshily.

Loving and kind heart don't need high educating or high IQ. And that's what Jesus' teachings are all about. God and Jesus are looking into our heat, dear. Proud heart is enemy of God and Jesus and is anti-Christ.


Christianity is all about humbleness.

Most leaders of their own doctrines are missing the mark of core of Jesus' loving spirit.

Watch out following highly educated Christian leaders.


Jesus picked uneducated ones as leaders of His ministry.

Since they say: "Ignornance is bliss" YOU must be the happiest person on planet earth!
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Meshak seems resentful of those who have a higher degree of education. The Apostle Paul, who she believes was an anti-Christ, was a highly educated man and a pharisee. She doesn't like hearing about him, though. Paul brought the Gospel to the Gentiles. Christ Himself gave him that mission.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
I reread it and it was clear. I have one 'thank you' so it was clear to another besides myself as well. I think a ninth grade education might be culprit here.

I think you are confused. You were talking to AMR. I only quoted you.
So not all of it confused you?


:doh: THIS was "worth responding to???" Besides, you already said you were confused. I already got that point.


I was talking about the reason why we Christians are to reject heresy and have nothing to do with heretics. Universalism does harm and damage to the gospel message and disdains the saving work of Jesus Christ. There are currently 2 other Universalists posting with you these last few pages. When I said you disdained Paul, it was because you are speaking against his instruction to have nothing to do with heretics and heresies.



Yet He told His disciples to do what they said, not what they did. The Pharisees get scapegoated a lot for crimes, especially by cultists who have no idea why they were called whitewashed tombs. Jesus also said "we worship what we know, you worship what you don't know. John 4:20 Salvation belongs to the Jews." John 4:22
Tradition, in this case, has given us creeds and a good many of them, that tell us what is scripturally sound and what is not. Generally, if you are against the majority of Christians, it is a warning sign that you are traveling off toward private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20-21 Having a 9th grade education, I'd recommend you stick with the majority. It will not serve you well if you go off alone. A ninth grade education is too small for doctrinal seas.

You're correct Lon, it's got to be his lack of education. His ability to comprehend has been stunted because of that shortcoming.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Thanks to GM, I saw your quote or would have never seen it (I still have you on ignore for preaching what is false about The Lord Jesus Christ).
Jesus was mostly concerned of uneducated, poor and needy.
:nono: He was concerned with everyone.

Watch out out for your proud heart of high education and high IQ.
Agree. I do lift my grades for view when cultists do the opposite and are proud of their low grades in school and 'try' to teach others.

They are also good at deceiving people.
We are all responsible for not being deceived.

Take a look at political world: They are all highly educated with super high IQ.
I'm not sure that they are.
Jesus criticized Pharisees and Scribes harshly.
He did but we must pay attention to all He said about them. He said to do what they said, just not act ungodly like them because they were interested in money and being called 'sir.'
Loving and kind heart don't need high educating or high IQ. And that's what Jesus' teachings are all about. God and Jesus are looking into our heat, dear. Proud heart is enemy of God and Jesus and is anti-Christ.
However, Christ is not merely an example to follow, He is our Creator, Savior, Lord, and one who Remakes us in His image.
This thread is about cults that do not believe this, nor trust in His work on the cross.
Christianity is all about humbleness.
I agree we are called to portray humility, but this is not a false humility. It would be wrong and a lie to not accurately assess ourselves (going neither higher nor lower but what is true about ourselves).

Most leaders of their own doctrines are missing the mark of core of Jesus' loving spirit.
As you mention their 'own doctrine' it is the cultist that has a private doctrine. I do not agree with many on TOL but I am not on a heretic list. That means, for the most part, 'my' doctrine is all Christian's doctrine.
Watch out following highly educated Christian leaders.
Would you rather follow stupid and low educated leaders??? :idunno:
Jesus picked uneducated ones as leaders of His ministry.
They were called uneducated, but this wasn't true. They wrote the gospels and wrote them cogently so they had to have a good amount of education to do so. They walked with Jesus for over 3 years, so they had His education as well. So, while scripture records someone saying they were 'unlearned,' that observation wasn't true. Paul was as learned as one could be and the rest of the Apostles were no slouches.

Again, would you rather learn from people who are intelligent, or people who aren't??? :noway: I can't and wouldn't undo my education.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Thanks to GM, I saw your quote or would have never seen it (I still have you on ignore for preaching what is false about The Lord Jesus Christ).

:nono: He was concerned with everyone.


Agree. I do lift my grades for view when cultists do the opposite and are proud of their low grades in school and 'try' to teach others.


We are all responsible for not being deceived.


I'm not sure that they are.

He did but we must pay attention to all He said about them. He said to do what they said, just not act ungodly like them because they were interested in money and being called 'sir.'
However, Christ is not merely an example to follow, He is our Creator, Savior, Lord, and one who Remakes us in His image.
This thread is about cults that do not believe this, nor trust in His work on the cross.
I agree we are called to portray humility, but this is not a false humility. It would be wrong and a lie to not accurately assess ourselves (going neither higher nor lower but what is true about ourselves).


As you mention their 'own doctrine' it is the cultist that has a private doctrine. I do not agree with many on TOL but I am not on a heretic list. That means, for the most part, 'my' doctrine is all Christian's doctrine.
Would you rather follow stupid and low educated leaders??? :idunno:

They were called uneducated, but this wasn't true. They wrote the gospels and wrote them cogently so they had to have a good amount of education to do so. They walked with Jesus for over 3 years, so they had His education as well. So, while scripture records someone saying they were 'unlearned,' that observation wasn't true. Paul was as learned as one could be and the rest of the Apostles were no slouches.

Again, would you rather learn from people who are intelligent, or people who aren't??? :noway: I can't and wouldn't undo my education.

AMEN Lon.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Aumen :)

But do note what group of people (under the banner of 'organized religion') did go on 'witch hunts' and 'inquisitions' doing atrocities in the "name of the Lord". They did so in the name of 'Christianity'....or their version of 'religious duty' to 'God' and the 'Bible'. Scary stuff....but that's history.

Any and all groups, religious or otherwise, have the capacity for evil - because they are composed of men, and men sin. The real question is whether or not the belief system that they are supposedly fighting under actually supports such actions or not. Christianity in no way, shape, or form justifies these things.

There is sin, and it will be judged, but that is not our purpose as Christians here and now. The judgement is an undesirable reality, the result of people doing evil to one another and refusing to repent and change their ways. Anyone who rushes to condemn others does not understand God's love.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Meshak seems resentful of those who have a higher degree of education. The Apostle Paul, who she believes was an anti-Christ, was a highly educated man and a pharisee. She doesn't like hearing about him, though. Paul brought the Gospel to the Gentiles. Christ Himself gave him that mission.

Remember that the Lord spoke using parables that the wise of the day could not understand him. Even his own disciples were constantly puzzled by his meaning. Rather, his message was for the poor, the broken, the uneducated who were lost. While having a higher education can certainly help you in your study of the scriptures - it is not required to understand the Lords teachings.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Trouble is established Christianity is in bed with the Babylonian world/mental system that dictates their existence. The irrational dialectic that allows them to believe the lie of Human sacrifice being ordained by the Creator when the scripture teaches these things happen within us, Timeless truth that isn't observational, for the reasons that observations produces idols in the mind, theology being the worst offender that perverts the inward message into a circus of distractions from a simple truth stated by the Spirit labeled Jesus, Luke 17:20-21 is the fly in their worldly ointment of exclusive Elitist dogma religiously taught, and Talmudic in its Elitist mentality which sprang the Calvinist royal blood line like dogma, which is Talmudic re-formed deception.
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Again, would you rather learn from people who are intelligent, or people who aren't???

Jesus' teachings don't need high degree to understand.

His teaching were meant to reach out to the whole world including not so educated.

Most of you who debate sound so proud of their high education.

Jesus admonished such people.

Yes, Jesus is more concerned of poor and needy and uneducated people than who are so proud of their intellect and high IQed people.

Most of us in the west who are blessed materially are already rewarded.

Those who are not one of them will be rewarded for sure in God's kingdom.
 

Choleric

New member
I love you too Choleric :)

Reality is what actually exists, what IS. This (here/now) is reality, it is ever-present, all-pervading, all-encompassing. It includes the whole of life, existence and consciousness,....all of infinity. All That IS, and all that ever will be, actual and potential.

Now as far as what religious truth, concepts, beliefs or ideals you hold, that is 'relative' and certainly 'debatable' ;)

Since 'God' is omnipresent, He/She is not limited to any religious definition or culture, not even by anyone's imagination! Since Deity is INFINITE. Consider what is infinite. It is impossible for the finite to hold, mold or define infinity.

This is all a bunch of nonsense. God has revealed Himself and verified His Word through prophetic fulfillment and signs and wonders.

You have set aside His only true Word with a smorgasbord of your own invention, with whatever you "think is right" (Prov 16:25). Sadly, you will reject God's only revelation, that of His Son, who died for you, in your place.

You will for all eternity regret your blatant disregard for the Truth you claim to seek. It is right there in front of you, waiting to be embraced. Christ is long-suffering to you, not wanting you to perish, but to repent of your false belief system and take the only eternal life being offered.

Please repent of your false religion freelight. Your pride is going to take you to hell.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

Bociferous

New member
Greetings Lon,

...would you rather learn from people who are intelligent, or people who aren't??? I can't and wouldn't undo my education.
Understood. I can see that your education serves you well--your comments are well thought out, insightful and well reasoned.

With someone of your intellectual ability here I'd feel fortunate if you'd be willing to bring your formidable intellectual skills to bear on the very important question I asked AMR (while I continue to wait for his response).

AMR posted,
"...the constant plowing up of new ground is not what I see as the task of theology. Indeed, I am very content to stop, ponder, and be satisfied to walk in the same steps of those who have come before me. In fact, being more willing to so is what is needed today..."

Apparently AMR was 'truthsmacking' me, as he noted,
"There is nothing about the Christian faith about being silent in the face of incorrect doctrine or beliefs. Indeed, Christians are admonished to be alert, or suffer the consequences"

AMR's comments prompted this question from me:
"If you're only willing to accept as true doctrines those which fall into the traditional camp, how are you in any sense qualified to judge, with any degree of accuracy or objectivity, those interpretations of Scripture which challenge your own?"

I'd appreciate it if you'd consider the issue raised and give me your take on AMR's comments and my question. Is the question irrelevant?
 
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Bociferous

New member
I think it worthwhile to offer a special tribute to Grosnick Marowbe in this thread by highlighting a few of his more poignant comments. It's rare to encounter someone with the wit, humility and penetrating intelligence GM displays in his posts. I'm thankful for his intellectual honesty, his acumen and ability to move deep discussion forward to heights of intellectual clarity rarely found in the theology message board format.

Are you an illiterate my fiend? It would probably best if you got some form of schooling?
It would be best if you used "Spellcheck?" That way you wouldn't look like such a dolt.
You're too much of an imbecile to take seriously. I'd like to take you down to a lower level (verbally) however, you reached that level long ago
I finally decoded your name. "DialM4Moron.
You're not as smart as you're not.
Another "Moron" has spoken.

I only finished 9th grade

It shows.
Maybe you should consider turning off your Laptop and run through your neighborhood yelling: "I'm smart, I really am, ask somebody who isn't."

Hey, Dialm4moron, even though I disagree with Lon and AMR, they outclass you about 100%.

Dialm4moron has utter disdain for older folks on TOL. He loves to indulge himself with nasty remarks about them. His IQ equals his shoe size.
Since they say: "Ignornance is bliss" YOU must be the happiest person on planet earth!

it's got to be his lack of education. His ability to comprehend has been stunted because of that shortcoming.
I would suggest that Dialm4moron get himself a paper route and Meshak take some English lessons.

GM, I salute you for your contribution to the general good. At age 65, in the twilight of your life, you must be silently proud of your accomplishments. God bless my friend.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Greetings Lon,


Understood. I can see that your education serves you well--your comments are well thought out, insightful and well reasoned.

With someone of your intellectual ability here I'd feel fortunate if you'd be willing to bring your formidable intellectual skills to bear on the very important question I asked AMR (while I continue to wait for his response).

AMR posted,
"...the constant plowing up of new ground is not what I see as the task of theology. Indeed, I am very content to stop, ponder, and be satisfied to walk in the same steps of those who have come before me. In fact, being more willing to so is what is needed today..."

Apparently AMR was 'truthsmacking' me, as he noted,


AMR's comments prompted this question from me:
"If you're only willing to accept as true doctrines those which fall into the traditional camp, how are you in any sense qualified to judge, with any degree of accuracy or objectivity, those interpretations of Scripture which challenge your own?"

I'd appreciate it if you'd consider the issue raised and give me your take on AMR's comments and my question. Is the question irrelevant?
First of all, as far as I can tell, you've gone a bit further than a GED either in work experience or school, I'd reckon (just a preliminary, nothing really in the way of addressing your question yet).

I try to look at the Pharisees for this answer. It might sound weird, but I think they get scape-goated for more than their actual problem. In a nutshell, they were letter-of-the-law men without the Spirit of God. They were very happy to go the route of the system but without spiritual intent. Enter of course, Nicodemus and a few other Pharisees who were actually very interested in what Jesus and the Apostles said *(see Gamaliel in Acts 5 also). Jesus called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs, doing the custom and deeds outwardly, but having fleshly motives, yet Jesus told the Disciples to do what the Pharisees said, just not do what they did. IOW, their doctrine was sound, their hearts were bad.

To your answer: I believe God does steer His people. He kept Israel orthodox and ensured they held correct doctrine. They too, had a few denominations that disagreed, but essential doctrine remained and was protected by God.

I tend to think of cults like Samaritans in Jesus' day. The disciples were surprised Jesus was talking to a Samaritan woman. She too was surprised, because they were avoided much like a JW or Mormon coming to the door.

The Samaritan woman asked Jesus about worship and the difference between them as a cult and Jews. Jesus told her 1) that she worshipped what she didn't know, but that the Jews (including Pharisees who were teaching in the synagogue) worshipped what they did know. Further, He told her that worship that the Father accepts must be done with Spirit AND Truth. As a Samaritan the 'spirit' was all they had. They didn't have connection with Jerusalem for sacrifices because they were an intermarried people and their forefathers broke away from Judah. Jesus told them that the Father sought worshippers that worshipped Him both in truth, and Spirit.

I think the answer to your question must first be that we trust God to have protected His truth as He did in the O.T. Such also included the commentaries and interpretation of the OT book. God used priests, prophets, and godly kings to preserve His word as well as preserve the traditional understanding of those texts. How do we know? Because He told His disciples to listen to them and follow their instruction. There are scriptures that support this as ongoing so I think there are problems with disagreement with councils on essential doctrines.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
I think it worthwhile to offer a special tribute to Grosnick Marowbe in this thread by highlighting a few of his more poignant comments. It's rare to encounter someone with the wit, humility and penetrating intelligence GM displays in his posts. I'm thankful for his intellectual honesty, his acumen and ability to move deep discussion forward to heights of intellectual clarity rarely found in the theology message board format.

Thanks so much. It's so nice to see someone with such discernment and insight.

Always remember: "Where's there's a will, there's relatives close by."
 

Bociferous

New member
Having identified as a Universalist/Allegorist in this thread, Ask Mr. Religion quickly rose to the occasion to ‘truthsmack’ me. But his comments highlight what I see as a deep problem in Christianity and its relationship to truth.

Jesus showed us the power of prescriptive or moral truth and how this truth was hated by the religious hierarchy of His day. He was murdered for telling them more truth than their darkened hearts could comfortably hear, and they conspired to have Him put to death for it (Jn 8:37, Jn 8:40) Truth has no place in the darkened heart (Jn 3:19).

Human hatred for Truth can be seen in the number of philosophies which seek to deny it or place its power in human, not God’s, hands. A modern example is the tendency in universities everywhere to teach (both directly and by inference) relativism and moral skepticism to our young people as “enlightened” programs.

Here’s the problem. In his idea that Christians shouldn’t divide over doctrine, AMR states, “Anyone here who feels compelled to push the boundaries on core doctrines won’t find some very welcoming…I…remain convinced of the wisdom of the forefathers that came before us when I read what they have written and compare their writings to Scripture. Not a week goes by that someone somewhere decides they have a new view, new perspective, or new interpretation related to the fundamentals of our faith; despite their having withstood the test of time and painful examination for many, many, hundreds of years. Thus I become very concerned about discussions that start to challenge the core aspects of our faith. For those who see themselves as theological sophisticates, I would ask that these persons seek a more pastoral approach, rather than trying to be innovative.”

What AMR states here is typical of evangelical Christianity’s demeanor toward unorthodox interpretations of the Bible, especially toward allegorical interpretations.

What’s worse, a great many traditional Christians will quickly and unreflectively agree with AMR’s position.

The problem, for those who tend to quickly align with the status quo [tradition] without analysis or investigation, is that the mindset framed by AMR is immediately closed to any consideration whatever of any interpretation standing outside tradition. Though tradition’s champions will, when pressed, deny or soft pedal the charge, this position essentially equates one's doctrine with truth. This position says, “I know automatically, without having to even investigate your claim of warranted belief, that you’re wrong because you’re different than the majority view.” This position is immediately circular and displays a deep disconnect from a pursuit of truth. Some may not understand the significance of this, so I’ll use an example.

Most atheist arguments are based on a circularity. The atheist insists that only real things are open for discussion and the things that are real are those available to the five senses or that occupy points in time and space. Having defined the only arena in which he is willing to debate, the atheist then tells the Christian, “Now then, tell me all about this God of yours.” Obviously, the Christian has already lost all her arguments because the spiritual realm and God lie outside material reality and are deemed “not real”.

If one allows as valid only those beliefs and arguments that one embraces, then all competing positions are automatically wrong. This is a serious logical fallacy called circular reasoning.

Like the atheist, many Evangelical Christians automatically deem all interpretations of the Bible that fall outside tradition false—not by virtue of their having been proven false, but simply because they seem to be in opposition to accepted doctrine.

But Christian doctrine is not the same as truth. Evangelical literalism has many tensions. Tensions are unresolved problems. They point up inaccuracies in a system of thought. The Calvinist-Arminian tensions have been unresolved for more than 400 years. Absolute truth or certitude can only exist when all tensions have been resolved. Arminians invent and are satisfied with often awkward explanations to gloss over tensions in their doctrine, and Calvinists do the same. They’ve each had centuries to build such arguments, but the fact that hotly contested debates still rage shows that the tensions of each remain unresolved to this day.

This is why I asked AMR, “If you're only willing to accept as true doctrines those which fall into the traditional camp, how are you in any sense qualified to judge, with any degree of accuracy or objectivity, those interpretations of Scripture which challenge your own?”

The question points up difficulties that need resolution.
* How can a mind closed to the pursuit of truth be united with Truth Himself (Jn 14:6) or satisfy the qualification of Jn 10:27?
* How can the mind unwilling to even consider any understanding of the Bible except his own be qualified to “truthsmack” one who holds a different understanding?
* How can we swear obedience, love and honor to the living Truth if we have no interest in the pursuit of any truth but our own?
 
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