ECT Satan and Preterism

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You just don't that it is what David was looking forward at. That's why Acts 15 says what it does about the raising of his tent.

James quoted from the Greek version of the OT (the Septuigant), but with a slight modification. Here are the verses from the Septuigant :

"In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things"
(Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).​

James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things"
(Acts 1516).​

James is saying that it will not be until the Lord Jesus returns that He will fulfill the Davidic covenant by raising up the tabernacle of David and building it as in the days of old.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
James quoted from the Greek version of the OT (the Septuigant), but with a slight modification. Here are the verses from the Septuigant :

"In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things"
(Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).​

James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things"
(Acts 1516).​

James is saying that it will not be until the Lord Jesus returns that He will fulfill the Davidic covenant by raising up the tabernacle of David and building it as in the days of old.




You have totally misunderstood. He was saying what was happening before their eyes. You have no idea.

You will have to stop the 'gotcha' stance with your 'accusing God of lying' Jerry, and try another approach.

But on this one, you don't even understand the meeting that took place. This is classic distracted futurism, where the 'meaning' is what it will supposedly be in X000 years in the future.

btw, there is no replacement of words because you don't believe in replacement and it would make Amos a liar. It is a matter of Septuagint Greek. But that does not change the time frame. Everyone at that meeting was not talking about the X000 future. They were talking about THAT situation RIGHT THEN.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You have totally misunderstood. He was saying what was happening before their eyes. You have no idea.

You did not even explain why James spoke of the Lord Jesus' return in the future. You do not even understand anything about why James said what he did here:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things"
(Acts 1516).​

James believed that this prophecy of Amos will not be fulfilled until after the Lord Jesus returns. He quoted those words in regard to a controversy that had arisen in the early church. There were some in the Jerusalem church who believed that the Gentile believers should be required to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses. In other words, some believed that the Gentiles should be members of the commonwealth of Israel. However, James quoted Amos in order to demonstrate that when the Lord Jesus returns there will be Gentiles being saved as Gentiles: "After this I will return...that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called". Therefore it was decided that the Gentile believers did not have to be circumcised and did not have to keep the law (Acts 15:24-29).

We can understand that the "tabernacle of David" is in regard to the "throne" on which the Lord Jesus will sit when He sets up the kingdom on earth:

"And in mercy shall the throne be established: and He shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness" (Isa.16:5).

We can also understand that the tabernacle will be set up in the "midst" of the children of Israel in the land which the LORD gave to Jacob:

"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have...Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people"
(Ez.37:25-27).​

According to your discredited ideas the Lord Jesus is now ruling in heaven as King so we must believe that the land which the LORD gave Jacob is in heaven!

I can understand how you might have been confused about these things in the beginning but now that you have been shown the truth you continue to cling to your fables like your life depends on them. All I can see from you is that you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

Believing men will profit you nothing because it is only those who "believe God" who are justified in His sight:

"For what saith the scripture? For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
(Ro.4:3).​
 

Danoh

New member
You have totally misunderstood. He was saying what was happening before their eyes. You have no idea.

You will have to stop the 'gotcha' stance with your 'accusing God of lying' Jerry, and try another approach.

But on this one, you don't even understand the meeting that took place. This is classic distracted futurism, where the 'meaning' is what it will supposedly be in X000 years in the future.

btw, there is no replacement of words because you don't believe in replacement and it would make Amos a liar. It is a matter of Septuagint Greek. But that does not change the time frame. Everyone at that meeting was not talking about the X000 future. They were talking about THAT situation RIGHT THEN.

You are partly right - James WAS writing to those members of "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" of his day.

Unless he forgets for a moment, no MADist would assert otherwise.

My understanding is the following.

That you are a HERETIC.

Why?

Spoiler


Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

That was then.

Followed by a change in that AFTER Paul was saved...

Acts 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. 9:28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem. 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

So that by the time of the following; their persecution by their own (some within the Sanhedrin) was largely over with, and now their chief persecutor: Paul, was the one ever being persecuted (by some within The Sanhedrin).

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut. 21:31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar. 21:32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.

Admittedly, that does not fit the Preterist Scripture twisting (in their ignorance of the actual cohesiveness of these things) that you long ago...fell prey to.

The fact that said persecution of James' readers temporarily fell by the wayside with the salvation of what appears to have been the loss of The Sanhedrin's chief "zealot" against them, after he himself was saved, goes right passed you long since books based wisdom of men.

Acts 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 26:21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.



In short, YOU DAILY blaspheme all that.

You just might be saved (God knoweth); but you are CLEARLY a first rate, out and out, FULL blown HERETIC.

Spoiler


Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

Interplanner

Well-known member
You did not even explain why James spoke of the Lord Jesus' return in the future. You do not even understand anything about why James said what he did here:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things"
(Acts 1516).​

James believed that this prophecy of Amos will not be fulfilled until after the Lord Jesus returns. He quoted those words in regard to a controversy that had arisen in the early church. There were some in the Jerusalem church who believed that the Gentile believers should be required to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses. In other words, some believed that the Gentiles should be members of the commonwealth of Israel. However, James quoted Amos in order to demonstrate that when the Lord Jesus returns there will be Gentiles being saved as Gentiles: "After this I will return...that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called". Therefore it was decided that the Gentile believers did not have to be circumcised and did not have to keep the law (Acts 15:24-29).

We can understand that the "tabernacle of David" is in regard to the "throne" on which the Lord Jesus will sit when He sets up the kingdom on earth:

"And in mercy shall the throne be established: and He shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness" (Isa.16:5).

We can also understand that the tabernacle will be set up in the "midst" of the children of Israel in the land which the LORD gave to Jacob:

"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have...Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people"
(Ez.37:25-27).​

According to your discredited ideas the Lord Jesus is now ruling in heaven as King so we must believe that the land which the LORD gave Jacob is in heaven!

I can understand how you might have been confused about these things in the beginning but now that you have been shown the truth you continue to cling to your fables like your life depends on them. All I can see from you is that you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

Believing men will profit you nothing because it is only those who "believe God" who are justified in His sight:

"For what saith the scripture? For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
(Ro.4:3).​



2P2P trick # 231: any time the NT talks about the future, it is about OUR era.

James was not talking about the return of Christ. After the decimation of the exile, God would 'return' and build up the fallen tent so that the rest of mankind would believe.

If you would get rid of your built in 2P2P problems, you might have noticed that Acts is about the mission to the nations through preachers launched in Israel (Eph 4, Ps 68), because at the end of the synoptics, after the Res, Christ gave a commission to reach the world.

So no amount of making me feel guilty for the lying God is going to happen, Jerry. You missed the whole story.

The land God gave to Abraham to inherit is THE WHOLE WORLD Rom 4 and it will happen in the NHNE.

It will help enormously if you have actual NT quotes along the way, instead of your own views about David this or Jacob that from OT passages.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
2P2P trick # 231: any time the NT talks about the future, it is about OUR era.

James was not talking about the return of Christ.

Who was he talking about here in "bold"?:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).​
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Who was he talking about here in "bold"?:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).​



After the exile. Did you miss v15. It says that the belief by the Gentiles was the thing that agreed with the lines from Amos. Nothing 2nd coming-related even remotely.

ie, sometime after the exile, the tent of David would be raised (certainly not Herod's tyrannical work) and Gentiles would believe.

2, these things--belief on Christ by the Gentiles--has been known for ages. Because the Bible predates Israel and says that its blessing (Christ) would bless all the nations.

It's talking about the mission to the nations.

Acts 2, 13, 15, 26 are all talking about the mission to the nations, not a land promise reversion episode in Israel.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
After the exile.

No, not after the exile. These are James' own words and his words are speaking about what will happen in the future, not something that has already happened:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).​
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
No, not after the exile. These are James' own words and his words are speaking about what will happen in the future, not something that has already happened:

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).​



Sorry, they are Amos, Jerry. Get your basics straight. the quote starts after the phrase 'as it is written.'

I think you'd better take a break for a month and come back after you know some basic NT information.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I think you'd better take a break for a month and come back after you know some basic NT information.

I think that you should go away and stop preparing the way for the wicked one:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
(2 Thess.2:8-9).​

When was it that you said that the wicked one came in the past?
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sorry, they are Amos, Jerry. Get your basics straight. the quote starts after the phrase 'as it is written.'

Yes, and James told us when it would happen when he changed the words of Amos here in "bold":

"In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things"
(Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).​

James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words in "bold":

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things"
(Acts 1516).​

If you are right then provide a translation of a verse from the book of Amos which uses the words "After this I will return" instead of "In that day."
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Yes, and James told us when it would happen when he changed the words of Amos here in "bold":

"In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things"
(Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).​

James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words in "bold":

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things"
(Acts 1516).​

If you are right then provide a translation of a verse from the book of Amos which uses the words "After this I will return" instead of "In that day."



The context of the amos prophecy provides that. he had been telling how awful the exile was. to start a new section saying 'in that day...' that was positive meant 'after that awful time.'

You are too tight minded and sound-byte compartmentalized to deal with the material.

And the apostles had no reason to speak of things X000 years in the future. they were now excited to welcome the Gentiles, but had a built-in tradition to preserve something about the law.

You are too focused on one tree and don't know what the forest is there for.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
There are no textual notes on Acts 15:16. There is one about 'known from the ages' in 18 (which raises your other question all over again about what was hidden and when). This incoming of the Gentiles into a regenerated Israel was known for ages.

You need to some basic work and reading.
 
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