ECT Satan and Preterism

Jerry Shugart

New member
Those within the preterist camp are unwittingly serving Satan. They say that the "man of lawlessness" spoken of here has already come and gone so we need not worry about him in the future:

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come until the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God" (2 Thess.2:1-4).​

Of course by the time when the apostasy strikes the so-called professing church the preterist doctrines will be accepted as fact and the man of lawlessness will come waltzing in and no one will even suspect his real identity. The following passage speaks of his methods:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess.2:8-9).
 

Interplanner

New member
Those within the preterist camp are unwittingly serving Satan. They say that the "man of lawlessness" spoken of here has already come and gone so we need not worry about him in the future:

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come until the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God" (2 Thess.2:1-4).​

Of course by the time when the apostasy strikes the so-called professing church the preterist doctrines will be accepted as fact and the man of lawlessness will come waltzing in and no one will even suspect his real identity. The following passage speaks of his methods:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess.2:8-9).



The details of that passage connect it to the 1st century situation. Or do we go bonkers with a reference to standing in the temple? Oh, it's a temple X000 years in the future, of course!!! Anyone can see. Here's this congregation thinking Christ already came, so why would Paul answer that question about the guy in the temple and NOT say it's X000 years in the future? He said the problem would be when you heard about him being there, which he was shortly.

The only thing to clarify about NT eschatology is how we are going to think about the delay. It is very obvious what referred to the DofJ. It is clear that the world wide judgement did not happen. That was clear by 73 AD when nothing global happened after Masada. So...how are we supposed to think about the delay?

A: just as Mt 24 or Mk 13 or 2 Pet 3 says. Those are the only passages I know of about the subject.
 

Interplanner

New member
Those within the preterist camp are unwittingly serving Satan. They say that the "man of lawlessness" spoken of here has already come and gone so we need not worry about him in the future:

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come until the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God" (2 Thess.2:1-4).​

Of course by the time when the apostasy strikes the so-called professing church the preterist doctrines will be accepted as fact and the man of lawlessness will come waltzing in and no one will even suspect his real identity. The following passage speaks of his methods:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess.2:8-9).
'

My interp of power and signs and lies' is the modern Israel thing. Or the doctrine of. it is a total distraction from what Christians and their message is about.

However, the passage is not about modern times anyway, which are summarized as bad enough in Rev 20--Satan decieving all nations and organizing them to harrass God's people. The passage was about what happened in Judea in the DofJ.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
My interp of power and signs and lies' is the modern Israel thing. Or the doctrine of. it is a total distraction from what Christians and their message is about.

So that is your interpreation of the meaning of this verse?:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2 Thess.2:8-9).​

Besides that, I cannot see that the reference to the 'lying wonders"and "signs" are limited to Israel:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev.13:13-14).​
 

Interplanner

New member
For the 1000th time:

everything he said about the destruction of Jerusalem took place;
he also talked about the final worldwide judgement, and although it sounds everywhere like it would happen right after the DofJ, it did not. It was delayed.

Those two things are historic fact.

Mixing pieces of either is chaos, whether you place worldwide things back then or put passages about Judea in our times.

When Paul was talking about Israel being deceived back then, they were. He said the wrath was coming upon them fully. It did.

Luke mostly transcribed Paul and you will see that there is no 'space' (time) between the DofJ and the final judgement ANYWHERE in Paul. He even advises not to marry to believers in I Cor 7 because the end is so close. Yet we know otherwise from history about the end. You and I are here talking about it.

Jesus stopped all separate speculation about David's son by announcing that he was that son, according to Ps 2. Then he was enthroned in the resurrection in an event David foresaw, not a "David" event. That is why Ps 2, 16 and 110 are used so many times about that enthronement. And why David's promises were transferred to him. and why David's raised tent is the nations who are now believers.
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
For the 1000th time:

everything he said about the destruction of Jerusalem took place;

When did this take place?

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened...Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"
(Mt.24:21-22,29).​

Besides that, why did you not tell us when these things took place:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
(2 Thess.2:8-9).​

Here we can see an example of the "power" of the man of lawlessness:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live"
(Rev.13:13-14).​

When did that happen in the past?
 
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Interplanner

New member
When did this take place?

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened...Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"
(Mt.24:21-22,29).​

Besides that, why did you not tell us when these things took place:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
(2 Thess.2:8-9).​

Here we can see an example of the "power" of the man of lawlessness:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live"
(Rev.13:13-14).​

When did that happen in the past?




"Immediately after" what? After the destruction of Jerusalem.

Listen again: the world wide things were supposed to take place right after the DofJ. This means that the worldwide things have been delayed. The DofJ certainly was not!

v21 is the shift of setting. One of the main tasks of NT eschatology is to settle when the 'after' things happen. They are clearly still to come. They were clearly delayed.

But the DofJ was not. It could not be. He said too many times those things would happen in that generation, and he fixed it in time in Lk 23 by saying that when the babies nursing as he crawled through Jerusalem with the crossbeam on his back--when they were adults, the place would be decimated.

The leading figures during the DofJ claimed to be Messiah. As we know from Christ doing so, that was 'to claim to be God' in Judaism.

If it is not a 'sin' to you to read up on the DofJ (like it is to STP and Danoh) you'll find that tons of things happened. The figure from Dan 8:13 or rather the leader of that rebellion is the AofD of Dan 9. That also fixes it in time--it was to happen in 490 years depending on how exact the last verse is meant.
 

Interplanner

New member
I would like you to consider understanding the Mt 25 'reign with the tribes' as Rev 21 does about the NHNE. That city has foundations of apostles and walls of tribes. Obviously not literal, it is also not in this earth's history in a normal sense, although the city of God's people is very real to me, as it was to Paul in Gal 4 as 'our mother' and as the home of freedom in Christ. It lingers just above this life and world but not detached.
 

SaulToPaul

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"Immediately after" what? After the destruction of Jerusalem.

Listen again: the world wide things were supposed to take place right after the DofJ. This means that the worldwide things have been delayed. The DofJ certainly was not!

v21 is the shift of setting. One of the main tasks of NT eschatology is to settle when the 'after' things happen. They are clearly still to come. They were clearly delayed.

But the DofJ was not. It could not be. He said too many times those things would happen in that generation, and he fixed it in time in Lk 23 by saying that when the babies nursing as he crawled through Jerusalem with the crossbeam on his back--when they were adults, the place would be decimated.

The leading figures during the DofJ claimed to be Messiah. As we know from Christ doing so, that was 'to claim to be God' in Judaism.

If it is not a 'sin' to you to read up on the DofJ (like it is to STP and Danoh) you'll find that tons of things happened. The figure from Dan 8:13 or rather the leader of that rebellion is the AofD of Dan 9. That also fixes it in time--it was to happen in 490 years depending on how exact the last verse is meant.

:chuckle:

The brainwashed...
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
"Immediately after" what? After the destruction of Jerusalem.

So when the Lord Jesus said that immediately after the great tribulation there would be signs in the sky He was mistaken because no signs appeared then? Of course not. The great tribulation has not yet happened and this prophecy describes what will bring that tribulation to an end:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east"
(Zech.14:1-4).​

Besides that, why did you not tell us when these things took place:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
(2 Thess.2:8-9).​

Here we can see an example of the "power" of the man of lawlessness:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live"
(Rev.13:13-14).​

When did that happen in the past? And while you are at it tell us when the events described at Zechariah 14;1-4 took place in the past.
 
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Jerry Shugart

New member
"Immediately after" what? After the destruction of Jerusalem.

Listen again: the world wide things were supposed to take place right after the DofJ. This means that the worldwide things have been delayed. The DofJ certainly was not!

The great tribulation of Matthew 24:21-22 will end in this way:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east"
(Zech.14:1-4).​

Since you think that the fulfillment of this prophecy happened in the past I am still waiting for you to tell me when it happened.

So far all I hear are the crickets!
 

Interplanner

New member
The great tribulation of Matthew 24:21-22 will end in this way:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east"
(Zech.14:1-4).​

Since you think that the fulfillment of this prophecy happened in the past I am still waiting for you to tell me when it happened.

So far all I hear are the crickets!


Rev 21. It's not the actual places, Jerry. The believers are all over the world, yet Satan 'surrounds' them. Therefore it is the oppression of all believers everywhere, and the 'city he loves' is not Jerusalem in the middle east, but his people. It is very simple. Since it is worldwide it belongs with those events that have not yet happened, but were meant to happen right after the DofJ.

You can't ignore what happened in the 1st century.
 

SaulToPaul

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Rev 21. It's not the actual places, Jerry. The believers are all over the world, yet Satan 'surrounds' them. Therefore it is the oppression of all believers everywhere, and the 'city he loves' is not Jerusalem in the middle east, but his people. It is very simple. Since it is worldwide it belongs with those events that have not yet happened, but were meant to happen right after the DofJ.

You can't ignore what happened in the 1st century.

:doh:
 

Interplanner

New member
When people are really desperate about their position, they pull out the big guns: your opponent is obviously in bed with Satan. Turn off your brain and look for Satan!
 

Jerry Shugart

New member
When people are really desperate about their position, they pull out the big guns: your opponent is obviously in bed with Satan. Turn off your brain and look for Satan!

You are the only desperate one I see around here. Why do you just run and hide when you were asked when the following prophecy was fulfilled in the past?:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
(2 Thess.2:8-9).​

Here we can see an example of the "power" of the man of lawlessness:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live"
(Rev.13:13-14).​

When did that happen in the past?
 

Interplanner

New member
You are the only desperate one I see around here. Why do you just run and hide when you were asked when the following prophecy was fulfilled in the past?:

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
(2 Thess.2:8-9).​

Here we can see an example of the "power" of the man of lawlessness:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live"
(Rev.13:13-14).​

When did that happen in the past?



The Rev was written about things at hand, about to happen. The Dan 8,9 evil person, leader of the 'rebellion that desolates', was to come in that same time frame. If you read accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem, you know there are a number of things that he had a hard time explaining; some of these were 'signs and wonders' that decieved people, wanted and done by the zealot leaders. Other things were signs and wonders that confirmed this event was God's judgement--the sword hanging over the city, the voice of the Godhead saying 'we have departed', the intense heat at the base of the temple, etc.

The Rev is not a literal guide to actual events. It is dramatic. I have gone through from the beginning, doing an actual accounting of personnel and materiel in %s, and got to -275% and stopped. It was obviously for dramatic impact.

While we are on the subject of 'proof', what exactly did the false apostles of Judaism do that made Paul say this:

"Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light". Do you doubt that is true as well? Does no one else in the NT or in other early Christian literature remember the day(s) Satan was an angel of light in Athens, Rome, Corinth or Jerusalem?
 
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