ROMANS 2:1 WILL THE GOOD BE SAVED?

[DougE]

In Romans 2 the apostle is merely expounding the Law of Reciprocity, meaning whatever a man sows: that shall he also reap...

...but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness: indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

God is indignant, angry and the person who obeys un-righteousness will reap tribulation and anguish in his life; he may even experience judgment should he die un-saved. I don't see 'works-based' salvation described anywhere in the text, or indeed in all of The Holy Scriptures.


Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

You are right

Romans 2 is how God will judge(Romans 2:5)
Everyone is judged on the basis of their individual deeds (Romans 2:6) and no one will escape judgment (Romans 2:3) Jew and Gentile alike (Romans 2:11)

 

[beloved57]

douge quote of Rom 2

2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

This describes the ones who have been brought to faith in Christ. Their Glory, Honour, and Peace comes through the Person and Work of Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

I believe faith will produce good works.

Faith does not always produce good works, if it did, we would not be warned.

 

[God's Truth]

I don't buy that.

Of course we have to do what Jesus says to do to get saved.

…unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 18:3.

…unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart; Matthew 18:35.

…unless you repent, you too will all perish; Luke 13:3.

There's no verse that says if we aren't 'humble enough' we'll lose our salvation. Only in your imagination.

We have to be humble.
I don’t know what you mean by humble enough.


James 4:6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

He is The Judge, not you; He alone decides who or what is good and pleasing to Him. He gives grace to those He chooses, not you.

Of course he decides. Where do you get otherwise? Jesus tells us what to do to get saved and to stay saved.

Again, this is something that God decides, not you. He is The One Who softens men's hearts. He does so by walking with them and talking with them and telling them about His Word and teaching them to walk in It.

God tells us who He decides to save.

...if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins; Matthew 6:15

The only reward is eternal life.
God can reveal what rewards await you, with His Spirit. If you draw close to Him, He'll draw close to you and reveal what eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard and what hath not entered into your heart. There ARE degrees of reward.
He does, indeed; but He DOESN'T require 'works' in order to be saved or to keep one's salvation. He doesn't give gifts and then take them back. Your works-based salvation is hooey. God gives us salvation, un-conditionally. I don't buy once-saved-always-saved, but I do know that we don't have to 'work' to keep our salvation.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

 

[God's Truth]

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Circumcision was not a sign of purification works of the law

Well, if one was NOT circumcised in the flesh, then one could NOT do any of the purification works.

Don't you agree with that?

 

[God's Truth]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

The 'not by works of righteousness' are the purification works of the law the people used to do to clean themselves. The people had to do VARIOUS EXTERNAL BATHS as commanded by God for the purification works.

Now we are WASHED by obeying the word and faith in the washing of the blood from the sins we REPENT OF DOING.

Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

 

[God's Truth]

Circumcision was not a sign of purification works of the law

No one can enter the sanctuary unless circumcised.

So then, how can one do any of the purification works of the law unless they are first circumcised?

Which proves one must be first circumcised to do any of the other purification works of the law.

Ezekiel 44:9 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.

Romans 2:27-29 Circumcision is broadly defined as "when one keeps the law." Uncircumcision is "when one breaks the law."

Circumcision of the flesh is a sign that the rest of the purification works can be done, for none can be done without circumcision of the flesh.

Romans 2:27-29 King James Version (KJV)
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Exodus 22:29-30 King James Version (KJV)
29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
30 Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me.

Leviticus 12:2-3 King James Version (KJV)
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

The eight day to be circumcised coincides with offerings of fruit, the first born sons, the first born of oxen, and sheep, and CIRCUMCISION of the flesh.
Circumcision represents any works that a person has to do as commanded by God to be called a child of God, and to be ‘clean’ versus ‘unclean’, as the Gentiles were, those who did not get circumcised and do all the purification works of the law to atone for themselves, which INCLUDED THE SACRIFICE OF ANIMALS.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Romans 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Read how Paul goes against the Galatians for being talked into doing the purification works of the law. They were talked into observing special days and getting circumcised. Paul says what? Paul says that if they allow themselves to get CIRCUMCISED, then they have to do ALL THE WORKS OF THE LAW, because no doubt, circumcision of the flesh is the sign that a person can do all the works.
Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Right there, there is no way you can ever get out of it that circumcision of the flesh IS THE SIGN that one does all the purification works of the law.

Read here how the DIVIDING WALL IS ALL THE PURIFICATION WORKS OF THE LAW:

Ephesians 2:10-18
In verse 15, Paul says that God "creates n Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace." The apostle defines what these "two" are in verse 11: "Therefore, remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh - who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands. . . ." "who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of division between us" (verse 14). Whether physically Gentile or Israelite, those who have "put on the new man" have one Spirit, God's Holy Spirit.

Ephesian 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace
Colossians 2:14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Those rules and regulations are the purification/ceremonial works of the law.

 

[Bradley D]

Faith does not always produce good works, if it did, we would not be warned.

Faith should make one want to live a righteous life. We still have to deal with temptations. That is why we have the Holy Ghost to let us know when an evil imagination arises. But we do not have to succomb to it.

 

[God's Truth]

Faith should make one want to live a righteous life. We still have to deal with temptations. That is why we have the Holy Ghost to let us know when an evil imagination arises. But we do not have to succomb to it.

Faith does not always produce good works, if it did, we would not be warned.
There are people who say all they have to do is believe.

 

[Aimiel]

The 'not by works of righteousness' are the purification works of the law the people used to do to clean themselves. The people had to do VARIOUS EXTERNAL BATHS as commanded by God for the purification works.

Now we are WASHED by obeying the word and faith in the washing of the blood from the sins we REPENT OF DOING.

Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Yes, but NONE of us is perfect. We are: in God's Eyes; but we are still living in a fallen world with imperfect knowledge. When we see Him: we will be like Him, because we'll see Him as He is and know all Truth.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, but NONE of us is perfect. We are: in God's Eyes; but we are still living in a fallen world with imperfect knowledge. When we see Him: we will be like Him, because we'll see Him as He is and know all Truth.

It only matters what God says. God says those in Him are made perfect by Jesus' blood and obeying him, and then we live up to that.

 

[Aimiel]

It only matters what God says. God says those in Him are made perfect by Jesus' blood and obeying him, and then we live up to that.

Then why do 'perfect' people still get sick? Why do they still sin? Why have none of them ever walked on water? Why has no one yet exceed the miracles that Jesus did? You apparently lack the understanding of what 'perfect' means. It means without flaw. Without the ability to be flawed in any way. No one has yet been made perfect. There was One, but He was put to death for it. This world is fallen. Man isn't perfect. When we receive glorified bodies: we will be perfect. When The King of kings and Lord of lords sits upon His throne, this earth will see what perfect order is, because there will be no temptation, illness or lack. It hasn't happened yet, despite your magical thinking.

 

[God's Truth]

Then why do 'perfect' people still get sick?

Because this is not the new earth yet and new bodies and we have testing.

Why do they still sin?

Because we still struggle to overcome.

Why have none of them ever walked on water?

God gave certain powers for the apostles to do.
It is not for everyone.

Why has no one yet exceed the miracles that Jesus did?

Not everything was written and the apostles probably did, like Jesus said they would do while they helped lay the foundation.

You apparently lack the understanding of what 'perfect' means. It means without flaw.

I know what it means. God says we are made perfect by the blood of Jesus.

Without the ability to be flawed in any way. No one has yet been made perfect. There was One, but He was put to death for it. This world is fallen. Man isn't perfect. When we receive glorified bodies: we will be perfect. When The King of kings and Lord of lords sits upon His throne, this earth will see what perfect order is, because there will be no temptation, illness or lack. It hasn't happened yet, despite your magical thinking.

Jesus is the King of kings and he is sitting on the throne.


1 Timothy 6:15
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Revelation 19:16
On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: King of kings and lord of lords.

 

[Aimiel]

Because this is not the new earth yet and new bodies and we have testing.

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So... we're NOT perfect? ​

Because we still struggle to overcome.

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That's not our job. We are to cast the WHOLE of our cares over onto Him, because He cares for us.​

God gave certain powers for the apostles to do. It is not for everyone.

​

You're just the same, to God, as the original twelve apostles: blood washed and you are His. He would not withhold any good thing from you.​

Not everything was written and the apostles probably did, like Jesus said they would do while they helped lay the foundation.

​

You seem to be putting words in His Mouth. He didn't say that they (alone) would do greater works; He was speaking of the victorious church He is going to one day come back for: the one that puts the remainder of His enemies under His Feet.​

I know what it means. God says we are made perfect by the blood of Jesus.

​

Indeed, but only in His Eyes. None of us is perfect, in this temporal realm.​

Jesus is the King of kings and he is sitting on the throne.

​

Again: sin, poverty, lack and disease will be done away with in His 1,000 year reign. He has not yet taken His Authority. He left it to us. That's explained in His Last Will and Testament. You should read one.

[

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URL="https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Tim%206.15"]1 Timothy 6:15[/URL]
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

​

Those, indeed, are His Titles; however: He abdicated His Authority to man in Eden. Are you even reading what I write to you? It seems that we're dealing with a learning curve here.​

Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Revelation 19:16
On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: King of kings and lord of lords.

Yes, but we can't blame starvation, abortion, genocide, war, theft or disease on Him, now can we? That's because He is NOT seated upon the earth in authority as Ruler and King. He will, but He hasn't done so just yet. When He does, these things will be done away with. What other explanation can you give for Him ruling this earth with a rod of iron? He won't do so as a tyrant or even a President but as The One True Holy Lord and God of all Creation. There will be no one upon the planet to disparage or disobey His rule or authority. It will be perfect paradise, just as He designed originally.

 

[God's Truth]

So... we're NOT perfect?

Believe what God says.
Why do you go against Him and the many times saying Jesus’ blood makes us perfect?

That's not our job. We are to cast the WHOLE of our cares over onto Him, because He cares for us.

We are to struggle and overcome. That is the word of God

You're just the same, to God, as the original twelve apostles: blood washed and you are His. He would not withhold any good thing from you.

No, the apostles helped lay the foundation. The foundation has been laid AND the gospel has been witnessed to.

You seem to be putting words in His Mouth. He didn't say that they (alone) would do greater works; He was speaking of the victorious church He is going to one day come back for: the one that puts the remainder of His enemies under His Feet.

He says to those LAYING the foundation with him will BE ABLE TO DO THINGS AS A TESTIMONY FROM GOD.

 

[God's Truth]

Indeed, but only in His Eyes. None of us is perfect, in this temporal realm.

You are going against God and demeaning what the blood of Christ does.

Again: sin, poverty, lack and disease will be done away with in His 1,000 year reign. He has not yet taken His Authority. He left it to us. That's explained in His Last Will and Testament. You should read one.

He is reigning now.

which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Those, indeed, are His Titles; however: He abdicated His Authority to man in Eden. Are you even reading what I write to you? It seems that we're dealing with a learning curve here.

You are the one with a learning disability.

Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Revelation 19:16
On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: King of kings and lord of lords.
Yes, but we can't blame starvation, abortion, genocide, war, theft or disease on Him, now can we? That's because He is NOT seated upon the earth in authority as Ruler and King. He will, but He hasn't done so just yet. When He does, these things will be done away with. What other explanation can you give for Him ruling this earth with a rod of iron? He won't do so as a tyrant or even a President but as The One True Holy Lord and God of all Creation. There will be no one upon the planet to disparage or disobey His rule or authority. It will be perfect paradise, just as He designed originally.

Jesus is ruling now---JUST AS THE BIBLE SAYS; and, he is GOING TO RULE UNTIL all enemies are under his feet.

 

[Aimiel]

Believe what God says.

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I do. I don't deny anything, in context.​

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Why do you go against Him and the many times saying Jesus’ blood makes us perfect?​

​

Because, if you were to actually understand the Truth contained in the Holy Scriptures regarding us being 'perfect'; you would know that the ONLY connotation is that we're perfect in His Eyes. He sees us as perfect as Christ, Himself. Justified = just as IF we had never sinned. We still have sin, in our mind and heart, since we're in a 'fallen' world and cannot see God and don't have perfected bodies. We still have the consequences of our sins as well.​

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No, the apostles helped lay the foundation. The foundation has been laid AND the gospel has been witnessed to.​

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That may be YOUR belief; but it will never be mine. I believe that anyone can be just as close to Him as they desire and that anyone can do anything that God requires they do. ​

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He says to those LAYING the foundation with him will BE ABLE TO DO THINGS AS A TESTIMONY FROM GOD.​

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l think you're putting words in His Mouth that He never spoke.​

You are going against God and demeaning what the blood of Christ does.

​

Nope. You are. You're trying to say that humans, right now, are perfect. That just isn't so. Only in His Eyes and on our permanent record are we cleansed. We still have to deal with our fallen nature, every single day. That's why we have to study, listen to preaching and prophesy. It's His Way.​

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He is reigning now.

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It's still not the same as His Reign will be when He sits upon the Throne in Jerusalem... and even THAT will not be the same as it will in the New Heaven and New Earth.​

​

You are the one with a learning disability.

​

That may be true, but it would seem you have twice the malady I'm burdened with.​

​

Jesus is ruling now---JUST AS THE BIBLE SAYS; and, he is GOING TO RULE UNTIL all enemies are under his feet.

Right, but once we put His enemies under His Feet: that will be His signal to come for the glorious overcoming church of the redeemed that He spoke of.

 

[God's Truth]

I do. I don't deny anything, in context.

So your excuse not to obey God is to say it is not in context?

Because, if you were to actually understand the Truth contained in the Holy Scriptures regarding us being 'perfect'; you would know that the ONLY connotation is that we're perfect in His Eyes. He sees us as perfect as Christ, Himself. Justified = just as IF we had never sinned. We still have sin, in our mind and heart, since we're in a 'fallen' world and cannot see God and don't have perfected bodies. We still have the consequences of our sins as well.

The Bible says we are made perfect and that we have to live up to that.


2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Colossians 1:28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.


Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

15All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

That may be YOUR belief; but it will never be mine. I believe that anyone can be just as close to Him as they desire and that anyone can do anything that God requires they do.

Where did you get that we can’t be close to him?

He says to those LAYING the foundation with him will BE ABLE TO DO THINGS AS A TESTIMONY FROM GOD.
l think you're putting words in His Mouth that He never spoke.

God testified to the one and only gospel by allowing the apostles to do miraculous things.

Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

Mark 6:7 Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.

Matthew 10:1
Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

 

[God's Truth]

I do. I don't deny anything, in context.

You are the one with a learning disability.
That may be true, but it would seem you have twice the malady I'm burdened with.[/QUOTE]
You say you are disabled, so no wonder you say untruths about me.

Right, but once we put His enemies under His Feet: that will be His signal to come for the glorious overcoming church of the redeemed that He spoke of.

That is not scriptural.

 

[Aimiel]

So your excuse not to obey God is to say it is not in context?

You're the one who's mis-construed the context of Scriptures explaining our 'perfection' in Him; I've not disobeyed God (that I'm aware of), at least: not today!​

The Bible says we are made perfect and that we have to live up to that.

We are to work out our salvation; in other words: we are to repent and seek His help with persistent sinful nature. No one is perfect, except The One Who always was, is and always will be perfect.​

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

If we really were 'perfect' as you still seem to be deluded into thinking; we would never have to purify ourselves as all, being perfect and all. You're just not thinking.​

Colossians 1:28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.

When we present those before Him whom we've led into The Kingdom: we'll see them in their perfect condition, because they'll be in the same glorified bodies that we will be in.​

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

We are, indeed, perfect... in spiritual sense. Our spirit-man is in perfect communion with The Father, because of Jesus' Blood. Our flesh is still in a fallen world. We have to bring His enemies into subjection in order to usher in His Kingdom into this world. That hasn't happened yet.​

Where did you get that we can’t be close to him?

You think of the 12 apostles as being 'above' us. They are human, just like we are. They are believers. We have the same promises they received, though none of us should look to have a better seat in Heaven than they.

God testified to the one and only gospel by allowing the apostles to do miraculous things.

But He hasn't taken back ANY of His Promises.​

You say you are disabled, so no wonder you say untruths about me.

I've never lied about you. You simply have a darkened understanding. As long as you continue to be un-teachable, you'll carry that darkness to new levels.

That is not scriptural.​

You only think that because you're un-learned. Read your Bible. It makes perfect sense, following Scriptural time-lines. Prove otherwise, if you think you're right. Denying a Truth doesn't change anything, other than the fact that you're trying to re-inforce your own position by denial.​